GT Class

[Ounin]

The owner and management of Lotus changed those days (after the mMadeira) and that was end of this project...which is sad because car with 3,5L engine and with low pressure turbo sounds as great idea to me. And moreover the car is really beautiful.

We saw the Lotus flying in the zero car in Ypres 2012 in the hands of Bernardo Sousa, was impressive, great sound as well.

[Mirek]

Did You find it impressive? I was actually disappointed with the car in Ypres. It was way too quiet and looked overall quite underpowered and bouncy.

[Ounin]

They were quick -although the times were not official of zero car- times were encouraging Sousa said, in that period nobody knew the project was about to be put in dustbin... If you are doing Ypres for the first time with new car in new GT spec I can imagine you get some bouncing ahead on Ypres stages.

[PLuto]

Has it ever become known, why the project was discontinued? They put so much effort and also publicity into this. Then they drove 3 stages or so on Madeira and then - nothing more. I am not aware of any explanation as to why they abandoned the projet.

If I remember well, they were disappointed with the performance of the car and after Madeira they stopped the project.

[Sulland]

Being the pioneer of the GT class in rally, it was probably hard to know what to expect from the regulations, with regard to speed.

But maybe now when you have a few homologated in the class, some private tuner could develop the Lotus further. It is a beautiful car, that many would love to see driven in anger in the GT class.

[lewalcindor]

Chris Harris on the new Cayman GT4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9-Sr8RPty4

[wildboar]

A Ford Mustang RGT is being developed in Belgium: http://www.autonews-magazine.com/blog/?p=43333

With my limited French I understand:
- it should first be prepared according to belgian RGT rules, but with the FIA rules in mind, so that a FIA homologation should be easy later
- it should be ready in September
- it is developed by "Teamfloral", with Jean-Marc Valckenaere

[vino_93]

That's it ;)

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

A Ford Mustang RGT is being developed in Belgium

Old or new Mustang..?

[wildboar]

Old or new Mustang..?

New Mustang.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

New Mustang.

Aww yeah..!!
I wonder if they'll use Fiesta RX (Olsbergs) engine..?

[wildboar]

I wonder if they'll use Fiesta RX (Olsbergs) engine..?

As far as I know, the RGT rules don't allow using a different engine. It is series production cars. But I am no expert on this.

[Mirek]

You are right.

[wildboar]

Tuthill Porsche have finally announced that their 911 RGT will compete at Circuit of Ireland. The driver will be Robert Woodside, with co-driver Alan Harryman.

http://www.tuthillporsche.com/blog/tuthill-porsche-enters-2015-circuit-of-ireland-rally/

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

As far as I know, the RGT rules don't allow using a different engine. It is series production cars. But I am no expert on this.
So I guess he'll use a modified version of 2.3 Ecoboost..

[wildboar]

So I guess he'll use a modified version of 2.3 Ecoboost..

No, they want to use the version with the 5-liter V8 engine, with 425 hp. They say that with a car weight of 1480 kg they are very close to the R-GT required ratio of 3.4kg/hp. As we discussed for the Cayman, it is probably a good thing if you are "naturally" close to the required ratio and thus don't need a small restrictor.

[Jarek Z]

If someone is interested in national rallying, here is the official entrylist for Rallye Lyon-Charbonnières in France. If I count correctly I see 10 Porsches plus Nissan 350Z and BMW Z3 :)
http://www.rallye-sport.fr/liste-des-engages-rallye-lyon-charbonnieres-2015/

[stefanvv]

Very interesting. The rise of GT class

[Jarek Z]

Final results of the 67. RALLYE LYON-CHARBONNIÈRES - RHÔNE - 3 Porsches in top 10! :)
1. Jean-Marie Cuoq/Jérôme Degout (F) Citroën C4 WRC 1:57.49,3
2. Pascal Trojani/Jean-Noël Vesperini (F) Citroën C4 WRC +11,8
3. Olivier Marty/Thierry Salva (F) Ford Focus RS WRC 08 +31,0
4. Yoann Bonato/Jacques-Julien Renucci (F) Peugeot 208 T16 +2.52,7
5. Gilles Nantet/Corinne Murcia (F) Porsche 997 GT3 RS 3.8 +3.35,0
6. Patrick Rouillard/David Marty (F) Porsche 997 Cup +4.20,0
7. Michel Sylvain/Gabrice Gordon (F) Porsche 997 GT2 +5.03,7
8. Jonathan Hirschi/Vincent Landais (CH/F) Peugeot 208 T16 +5.20,4
9. Frédéric Raynal/Jérôme Rouveirol (F) Ford Fiesta R5 +5.41,3
10. Ludovid Gal/Marie Carnevale (F) Citroën DS3 R5 +6.45,1

[stefanvv]

Only 1 R5 in front of the Porsches. the rest is wrc, amazing.

[dimviii]

Only 1 R5 in front of the Porsches. the rest is wrc, amazing.

what is amazing?

[stefanvv]

what is amazing?

That fight with R5 actually.

EDIT: let me enjoy myself little bit;)

[Mirek]

Have You missed years of GT dominance in Spain for example? GT cars are naturally very fast on particular stages in good weather and them beating S2000/R5 is nothing new. These weren't FIA spec. RGTs.

[stefanvv]

Have You missed years of GT dominance in Spain for example?

Yeah I know/and also missed lot of it, but still in Spain the roads are more made for this cars. True, it depends on the roads.

[dimviii]

That fight with R5 actually.

EDIT: let me enjoy myself little bit;)

i didnt saw any fight.I saw some good drivers with 997 (Nantet) that couldnt be faster from a less good driver with a r5 car.
of course you can enjoy yourself,but i can t read about ''fights'' that didn t happened.

[mousti]

less good driver? Bonato is a big talent, but it was his R5 debut though, and Cedric Robert wasn't much faster than Nantet before his retirement. But anyways it's for several years now that especially Nantet can get a very high overall result in some big French rallies.

[vino_93]

For sure Bonato is a better driver that Nantet. No doubt about that ... Bonato is a "professional" driver (he isn't eligible for amateur trophy f.e.), he was a top young gun, but couldn't find professionnal contracts at further times (and sponsors stopped supporting him the time he needed it).
Last year he was amazing driving the Adam R2. And here he was faster than Cédric Robert.

[stefanvv]

i didnt saw any fight.I saw some good drivers with 997 (Nantet) that couldnt be faster from a less good driver with a r5 car.
of course you can enjoy yourself,but i can t read about ''fights'' that didn t happened.

What is good is RGT is as fast as the top "regional" category Rally car. It is good because these cars are much more entertaining.

[Mirek]

What is good is RGT is as fast as the top "regional" category Rally car. It is good because these cars are much more entertaining.

Again, these cars were not RGT.

[stefanvv]

Again, these cars were not RGT.

Yes of course, I don't care much about the names, haven't noticed.

[Jarek Z]

let me enjoy myself little bit;)

Exactly! Let's enjoy the show! Don't ou guys find the GT cars beautiful?
http://rajdy.autoklub.pl/gallery/show/id/1429530589?pg=1

[Jarek Z]

Timothy van Parijs and his Porsche in the Rally Walonie 2015, isn't it beautiful? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkHMGfFg1Ig

[wildboar]

Timothy van Parijs and his Porsche in the Rally Walonie 2015, isn't it beautiful? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkHMGfFg1Ig

Is there already something known about participations in Ypres Rally/R-GT Cup?

[wildboar]

No idea how serious this website is, but their preview to Ypres Rally sounds very exciting regarding the R-GT cup:


And if you like the idea of Snijers, van Parijs, van de Wauwer in RGT Porsches, the Kenotek Ypres Rally on 25th to 27th of June will be round 2 of the newly formed RGT World Cup and the Berlgian Porsche drivers are bound to be joined by Francois Delecour in the Tuthill Porsche!

And although not confirmed yet, in Ypres the RGT World Cup will for the first time not only be about Porsches. Amongst the cars rumoured to join the RGT fun in Ypres are a Nissan 370Z, an Aston Martin Vantage and apparently even some form of Lamborghini!

http://irc.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=11&stid=12320

[mousti]

No idea how serious this website is, but their preview to Ypres Rally sounds very exciting regarding the R-GT cup:

http://irc.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=11&stid=12320

That's very optimistic. Maybe Snijers will be there because Ypres is one of his favorite events. VandeWauwer would really surprise me, he doesn't have alot of budget..

[stefanvv]

No idea how serious this website is, but their preview to Ypres Rally sounds very exciting regarding the R-GT cup

I think there was news several weeks back for Snijers to transform his GT3 to RGT specially for Ypres.

[PLuto]

I dont believe the article. Most of the noticed cars didnt suit R-GT regulations... Despite the article is written by well-informed person...

[tommeke_B]

Snijers is normally going to drive Ypres, from other Belgian GT drivers you shouldn't expect anybody... The homologation procedure alone costs around 8000 euros already, it's a small miracle at least one Belgian driver wants to start...

[Mirek]

Few years back it was possible to start with national-homologated GT in Ypres at the end of the field. Is it still possible?

Here in CZ I think if some local GTs will do Barum rally they will be in national field.

[mousti]

Few years back it was possible to start with national-homologated GT in Ypres at the end of the field. Is it still possible?

Here in CZ I think if some local GTs will do Barum rally they will be in national field.
With those new RGT rules I don't think they will do that again anyways it never had really success.

[tommeke_B]

Only FIA RGT-cars allowed in Ypres. Cars with national homologation were allowed a few years, but as mousti said it wasn't a success. According to some GT drivers back then the organizers didn't have any respect for them. For example, at TC people often even didn't knew that GT cars were coming after the ERC-field, and nobody was there anymore... After that some GT drivers agreed to not drive in Ypres again.

[PLuto]

With those new RGT rules I don't think they will do that again anyways it never had really success.

But I am not sure that Belgian cars will suit this new RGT rules.

[wildboar]

Ypres: according to the rally's Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/RallyYpres), Marc Duez and Francois Delecour are registered in the RGT class. I hope there will be more.

[tommeke_B]

If Snijers is going to start is mostly up to Eurosport now... I heard that Robert Woodside (who was driving the Tuthill GT3) wanted to register for ERC (and pay the 3000 euros) for the Circuit of Ireland, but they refused. So he had to start in the back of the field... I don't think Snijers will accept to start in the back of the field, the costs for making the car FIA homologated are big, sponsors must invest a lot in the project, so you expect some return for it... You could wonder why FIA created the GT class when they do things like this.

[wildboar]

There is a difference between Circuit of Ireland and Ypres: Ypres is part of the R-GT cup, Ireland was not. As far as I remember, R-GT cup drivers also had some sort of priority in Monte Carlo. Maybe some priority for R-GT cup drivers can also be arranged for Ypres?

[wildboar]

Here is the start list for Monte Carlo, section 1: https://acm.mc/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/START-LIST-SECTION-1-TC01.pdf
The RGT drivers didn't have a formal priority, but were slotted between WRC2 and WRC3. For ERC classes, that would be between ERC and ERC2. I don't know if these are FIA rules or if it is up to the promoter/organizer. Thus far Eurosport has completely ignored RGT, so let's hope it is FIA rules...

[wildboar]

Here from the Regional Rally regulations (http://www.fia.com/file/26697/download?token=hilUD9v-):


11.3 ERC PRIORITY DRIVERS
The following priorities will be attributed to the drivers as follows:
11.3.1 ERC1 Priority for Drivers registered in the ERC or entered by an ERC registered Team as per ERC Art. 7.2.
11.3.2 ERC2 Priority for Drivers registered in the ERC 2 or entered by an ERC 2 registered Team as per ERC Art. 8.2.
11.3.3 ERC3 Priority for Drivers registered in the ERC 3 or entered by an ERC 3 registered Team as per ERC Art. 8.2.
11.3.4 RGT Priority for Drivers eligible to score points in the RGT Cup rallies as per RRR Appendix X.

and


30.8.2 All other competitors will be seeded in the start list, in their respective Priority groups (ERC1 Priority, ERC2 Priority and ERC3 Priority), as per their classification in the Qualifying stage. RGT Priority drivers will start in the ERC2 Priority group.


So clearly, RGT drivers have some priority, if they compete in the RGT Cup (which will be the case in Ypres, but was not in Ireland).

[wildboar]

From the Ypres Rally Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/RallyYpres):


Patrick Snijers has registered in his GT Porsche. Looking forward to the battle between Delecour, Duez and Snijers. And who knows: maybe some more GT drivers to enter....

[tommeke_B]

Romain Dumas also with GT3 in Ypres. :) So 4 GT3's

[makinen_fan]

Turn up the volume in this one, amazing sound!
http://marzorace.tumblr.com/post/120772071136/van-parys-at-the-rallye-dantibes-last-week-turn

[CWJ]

An RGT Porsche is entered for Rally Finland:
#81 Jani Ylipahkala in a 997 GT3.
http://www.nesteoilrallyfinland.fi/a...0-18-32253.pdf

Jani got the car... ...and in the last winter they shoot Aeolus tyres commercial in the Lapland. But I got no idea does Aeolus got tyres suitable for gravel rallying..?

https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/l/t1.0-9/1001896_712555725431159_1311087582_n.jpg

Do they still have a R-GT passport at this Ylipahkala car?

[pantealex]

Do they still have a R-GT passport at this Ylipahkala car?

Why not?

I don´t think R-GT passport is only for 1 race, must be like 3 to 5 years like all other homologations.

[samWRC]

Why not?

I don´t think R-GT passport is only for 1 race, must be like 3 to 5 years like all other homologations.
It would be nice to see him back this year. Is there any possibilities?

[wildboar]

R-GT Cup standings after Ypres (round 2 of 5):
1st Delecour 43 pts
2nd Duez 30 pts
3rd Snijers 25 pts
4th Dumas 18 pts

[wildboar]

Nice photos of flying Porsches at Ypres Rally: https://twitter.com/OpensTightens/status/614704594598428672

[donlorean]

It would be nice to see him back this year. Is there any possibilities?

What I heard is that they are not going to compete this year... They still have that car but I don't know when they are going to race with it...

[samWRC]

What I heard is that they are not going to compete this year... They still have that car but I don't know when they are going to race with it...
Shame to hear that. Maybe they thought the friday loop without service would have been too much for the car?

[vino_93]

How is the project of the Mustang ? Will the car compete this year ?

[Andre Oliveira]

Alexandre Camacho: https://igcdn-videos-e-8-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t50.2886-16/11718714_992190944146648_135653132_n.mp4

Other: https://video-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xft1/v/t43.1792-2/11416187_496276493862417_243673993_n.mp4?efg=eyJxZ SI6InZpZGVvX3ByZWZlcnJlZF90YWdzXzIwMTUwMTIxLHRoZV9 sYXVuY2hlZCIsInJsciI6MTUwMCwicmxhIjoxMDI0fQ%3D%3D&rl=1500&vabr=853&oh=f38c8d9c333079a973ab9ef941baa716&oe=5599339B

[Ounin]

How is the project of the Mustang ? Will the car compete this year ?

Oh yeah good question, the more GT's the better -and not only Porsches- it would make the championship more valuable indeed. Team Floral in Belgium has planned to do the circuit version first, I think the rally version will be making its debut in the Condroz, hopefully.

[Jack4688`]

I'd like to see this become an R-GT car: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2016-renault-alpine-latest-spy-pictures

[itix]

That's an older Lotus Elise/Exige... slightly modified. There is an actual lotus Exige R-GT... it appears to have run in Ypres but I have no idea which year. I would love to see that in the R-GT championship! (It seems to be official from the factory also, hmmm. Could be mentioned in this thread before, I will admit that I haven't read it cover to cover).

http://www.lotuscars.com/our-cars/current-range/exige-s-exige-r-gt

http://www.lotuscars.com/sites/default/files/image_store/38574_Exige-R-GT-Ypres-Belgium_624x416.jpg

[Andre Oliveira]

2012 as course car. Driver was Bernardo Sousa

[Mirek]

That's an older Lotus Elise/Exige... slightly modified. There is an actual lotus Exige R-GT... it appears to have run in Ypres but I have no idea which year.

The car had only provisional homologation for Rali Madeira (it followed after Ypres) but the homologation process was never finished.

[Jack4688`]

It's a test mule of the forthcoming Renault Alpine clothed in Lotus bodywork. The production version of this concept is to what I was referring, not a Lotus: http://www.largus.fr/images/images/alpine-renault-celebration-concept-49.jpg

[itix]

The car had only provisional homologation for Rali Madeira (it followed after Ypres) but the homologation process was never finished.
How typical of lotus... It is very frustrating being a big fan of them *sigh*
Thanks for the info anyway!

[tommeke_B]

Yes, I know. But who said that the RGT rules cannot be changed?

No way FIA will ever allow cheaper cars to be quicker than R5, they just can't let that happen. ;) Also FIA is really not encouraging any drivers to choose GT. The car is almost a group N and the homologation procedure is too complicated and expensive for privateers, on top of that it lasts only up to 2 years (until the end of the year after you homologate the car, if anyone homologates their Porsche now it would last to the end of 2016).

[stefanvv]

It's little strange how things developed. Back in 70's You can see some 911s on the podium of Safari Rally! May be the RGT class should be made for gravel as well....

[Mirek]

Back in 1970' everything was different. 4WD cars were forbidden in rallying, everybody used sports cars and the air-cooled engines of Porsches were good for endurance events. Just one little thing was enough to make things upside down - to allow 4WD.

[janvanvurpa]

Back in 1970' everything was different. 4WD cars were forbidden in rallying, everybody used sports cars and the air-cooled engines of Porsches were good for endurance events. Just one little thing was enough to make things upside down - to allow 4WD.

I think the big change was the thing that created the need for dividing up the power and spreading it out to 4 wheels, and that change was this:


http://www.performance-car-guide.co.uk/images/L-Stig-Blomqvist-Saab-99-Turbo.jpg

Saab could not compete on equal footing with the all conquering Group 4 Ford Escorts with the great Cosworth BDG even with their 16v head---only 235 bhp vs 252-262 for BDG---mainly they figured from having a much heavier car so they added one of these:
(lurking behind the waste-gate)
http://www.99t.co.uk/saabs/combi/99t-7.jpg

And made TONS more torque....and then discovered very quickly that the housing for the gearbox was far far far too weak..
I am good friends with the engine builder at Saab from those days and have staying at his house several times.
Massive torque drove the need for more than 2 wheels driving..

Only then did the extra weight and problems of 4wd make sense.

Whatever the history, regarding these refugees from the circuits, I don't understand the fascination. They are clearly way way in excess of what is needed..too brutal delivery and so guys driving are too timid. They could de-tune a bit and go faster.

[Mirek]

Sure You have a good point here. Also the turbos of that time suffered from very notable lags and the turbo RWD cars were considered very difficult to drive.

I guess You might be interested in a fact that even here in the East we had some turbo cars in 1970' though none of them made it to rally homologation (mainly due to socialistic politics of the state which didn't allow making "expensive" road cars and therefore also suitable turbos in large scale).

Here is one - Škoda 2000 MI used on circuits and hill climbs since 1975. It wasn't very successful due to low reliability. If I understood right they had problems with the wastegate etc.

http://www.skodateam.cz/Skoda_2000_MI_Turbo-img_02wwk.jpg
http://www.skodateam.cz/Skoda_2000_MI_Turbo-img_02xsY.jpg
http://www.skodateam.cz/Skoda_2000_MI_Turbo-img_02y4w.jpg
http://www.foltyn.cz/car/skoda/s2000mi_5v.jpg

The engine was 2.0 litre OHC I4 from Škoda which was never allowed into production (actually same engine as used in quite rare rally cars Škoda 200RS and 180RS). The capacity was reduced to 1.77 (87x74.5) to keep the car in 2.5 litre class. The compression ratio was 6.8. The turbocharger was KKK with wastegate but without intercooler. The engine had single throttle valve and indirect fuel injection into four air channels just before the cylinder head. It used Schafer fuel pump. The power was 238 Hp at 6000 rpm. Compared to 130 RS here the engine was in front of the rear axle and it was therefore mid-engine car.

[Jarek Z]

No way FIA will ever allow cheaper cars to be quicker than R5, they just can't let that happen. ;) Also FIA is really not encouraging any drivers to choose GT. The car is almost a group N and the homologation procedure is too complicated and expensive for privateers, on top of that it lasts only up to 2 years (until the end of the year after you homologate the car, if anyone homologates their Porsche now it would last to the end of 2016).

Yes, I know. FIA would rather kill this sport than make it more accessible :(

[Jarek Z]

Whatever the history, regarding these refugees from the circuits, I don't understand the fascination.

Why do you not understand it? Those GT cars look strange on a rally stage, are difficult to drive and have a beautiful engine sound. Do you think that people come to the stages to see boring Ford Fiesta R2 and hear the awful engine sound of Ford Fiesta R5? :)

[Jarek Z]

There is an actual lotus Exige R-GT... it appears to have run in Ypres but I have no idea which year. I would love to see that in the R-GT championship!

It was in 2012. If I remember correctly this Lotus only competed in two rallies - Ypres as a course car and then Rali Vinho da Madeira. It wasn't lucky though. On Madeira Lotus made it only to the 3rd special stage, where it had some technical problem and crashed. This project was probably killed in the same year, which is a shame, because it had manufacturer support and some great drivers were testing the car (including multiple time European Champion Luca Rossetti).

Rali Vinho da Madeira result:
http://www.ewrc-results.com/driver_info.php?e=4001&d=163274&t=Rali-Vinho-da-Madeira-2012

Rali Vinho da Madeira photo:
http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2012/photos/rali_vinho_da_madeira_2012/mmo_img_1131copy.jpg

[CWJ]

No way FIA will ever allow cheaper cars to be quicker than R5, they just can't let that happen. ;) Also FIA is really not encouraging any drivers to choose GT. The car is almost a group N and the homologation procedure is too complicated and expensive for privateers, on top of that it lasts only up to 2 years (until the end of the year after you homologate the car, if anyone homologates their Porsche now it would last to the end of 2016).


RGT needs another push from FIA. Otherwise leading GT rally drivers will not change their national cars into international competition. Homologation cost is expensive but calculable and you need 2 full years of course. And if Snijers can do it, (do we see the car again at Monte?) many other also could do it.


I don't understand the fascination.

But many other fans and good drivers with balls do. And sponsors too. So we will see them.

[mousti]

I think Snijers-Ypres was quite a disaster. Although that car was never good..

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk

[Ucci]

[QUOTE=CWJ;1063743
But many other fans and good drivers with balls do. And sponsors too. So we will see them.[/QUOTE]

That way I'm upset when I hear words like : Pech is lost....no, he is not lost. He will continue his career, thank god on international level (he can drive almost all Czech stages blind...), if the team will approach so methodical to 911 project as they did with Mini (fastest and most reliable Mini RRC in the world!), I'm sure that Vaclav & team is going to have a very bright future...
The only thing what worries me : how will he seat in so small cabin, it will be difficult even to get in the car....

[Jarek Z]

The only thing what worries me : how will he seat in so small cabin, it will be difficult even to get in the car....

He is still lucky that it's not Lutus! :)

[Ucci]

He is still lucky that it's not Lutus! :)

Hahaha, a good one Jarek !

[Gregor-y]

http://www.99t.co.uk/saabs/combi/99t-7.jpg
Forget the turbo, that's an interesting looking manifold and whatever that red bit qualifies as.

[janvanvurpa]

Forget the turbo, that's an interesting looking manifold and whatever that red bit qualifies as.

The exhaust manifold? Huh? Just a cast iron thing with a heat-shield...You want one? (I think I still have 1-2 from when I built some "B" motors)

The actual rally cars were homologated under Group 4 I believe, and so had a tubular header.. That waste gate actuator looks impressive but let me tell you they were an enormous pain in the ass to set and it often could take 3-4 times and with the paper thin silicone rubber diaphragm inside, insanely easy to rip the rubber...It was such a relief when they finally moved to the nice ordinary waste gate actuators like these;
http://www.himni-racing.com/images/act%2018%20psi.jpg

If you're referring to the intake manifold, then that is just standard Saab 2,0 K-jet manifold..Quite long...Used on normal aspirated production cars (where its internal volume was a big bottle neck and limited n.a. power to right around 175hp--functioning much like todays accursed restrictors...but that was only a problem on Group 1 and 2 and later GpA cars..and extremely few ever bothered with the car in Gp1,2 or A)

[CWJ]

The only thing what worries me : how will he seat in so small cabin, it will be difficult even to get in the car....

Dobberkau is nearly 2m , Stölzel a more sturdy fellow... so no worries.

[Gregor-y]

The exhaust manifold? Huh? Just a cast iron thing with a heat-shield...You want one? (I think I still have 1-2 from when I built some "B" motors
The heat plate was blocking some of the tubing. It looked like the wastegate was coming off before all the cylinders were collected. If my WRX ever dies I'll probably visit a friend in Portland with an eye to finding a 240. A 99 would be nice, too but they're not as common. I've got a friend that rallies one in Missouri, and there's a black 900 SPG that still turns up in Chicago in the summer months, but that's it.

[Rally Power]

Back in 1970' everything was different. 4WD cars were forbidden in rallying (...) Just one little thing was enough to make things upside down - to allow 4WD.

Indeed! 4WD was allowed in WRC from 1979 by suggestion of the Audi representative in the rally manufacturers commission (then designated BPICA), that managed to convince other manus that Audi was interested in rallying VW Iltis derivade models! FIA adopted the BPICA unanimous recommendation and the first 4WD WRC entered car was a Gr.2 Range Rover, in '79 Ivory Coast rally. The Quattro presentation in '80 Geneva Motorshow was a real bombshell in rally world...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Nice to see the Tuthill Porsche R-GT in action on my local rally stages this weekend ! Hired by John Stone for the NW Stages (Promenade Rally, Wirral)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COFTo0CXAAEoXJl.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COFwn6aW8AA_upG.jpg:large

[itix]

The exhaust manifold? Huh? Just a cast iron thing with a heat-shield...You want one? (I think I still have 1-2 from when I built some "B" motors)

The actual rally cars were homologated under Group 4 I believe, and so had a tubular header.. That waste gate actuator looks impressive but let me tell you they were an enormous pain in the ass to set and it often could take 3-4 times and with the paper thing silicone rubber diaphragm inside, insanely easy to rip the rubber...It was such a relief when they finally moved to the nice ordinary waste gate actuators like these;
http://www.himni-racing.com/images/act%2018%20psi.jpg

If you're referring to the intake manifold, then that is just standard Saab 2,0 K-jet manifold..Quite long...Used on normal aspirated production cars (where its internal volume was a big bottle neck and limited n.a. power to right around 175hp--functioning much like todays accursed restrictors...but that was only a problem on Group 1 and 2 and later GpA cars..and extremely few ever bothered with the car in Gp1,2 or A)

Excuse my disinterest in the technical stuff... normally I'd be all over that shit but right now I am more excited because I just figured out who you are hahaha!
You're that dude in that rally documentary I watched a while ago who started rallying because you were getting rained on (who also has a cat in the work shop)!

The world is a small place.

...aight, enough off topic, back to technical stuff and rally GT cars. If they could make the series a bit more accessible and a bit more large volume it would be great. I do think that the speed they keep them to right now is fine. Manufacturers would be pissed if they overtook their machines on pure pace and people are excited to see them anyway.

[Jarek Z]

Nice to see the Tuthill Porsche R-GT in action on my local rally stages this weekend ! Hired by John Stone for the NW Stages (Promenade Rally, Wirral)

Wow! The livery looks fantastic! I'm curious to read your impressions after the rally!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Another great pic from Friday night...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COK7zOHXAAAeShG.jpg:large

Video clip: https://twitter.com/welburn_chris/status/640280579947294720

The car looks and sounds fantastic but wasn't the fastest on the tight, twisty stages (finished 24th). Plus being hired I dont think the driver wanted to risk doing any damage.

Results: http://www.amcrallyresults.co.uk/psroall2015.pdf

[Simmi]

With the RGT class and interest around it growing it will be interesting to see if Tuthill add another chassis next year. That's the same car that was on the Monte, Circuit of Ireland, Lurgan Park, Ypres, Germany etc and competed all last year.

A really big off certainly puts them at risk.

[AndyRAC]

I'd like to know were the rest of these cars are? We've only really seen the Tuthill & Dumas cars on numerous events. And what about other marques? It doesn't have to be Porsche, as much as I am a fan of them.

[dimviii]

this porsche must be a pleasure to watch trying to finish ahead of 20 years old peugeots 106 and opel corsas.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

this porsche must be a pleasure to watch trying to finish ahead of 20 years old peugeots 106 and opel corsas.

I think he had a small accident or technical on SS8 as it was running in the top 10 times prior to this. They said it was then going to retire but John Stone just drove it around the remaining stages, probably as so many people just wanted to see the car...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/693/20566159093_96ca64803e_b.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COPl6iwWoAANW7d.jpg:large

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Does anyone know about Tommi's GR86X..?

[janvanvurpa]

Excuse my disinterest in the technical stuff... normally I'd be all over that shit but right now I am more excited because I just figured out who you are hahaha!


You did!!??
That's good! cause I haven't:arrows:

Okej....når som helst...

Du kan säga.....

Vem är jag?

Jag heter Jon o ja ha inte gjort nåt!

[Jack4688`]

I'd like to know were the rest of these cars are? We've only really seen the Tuthill & Dumas cars on numerous events. And what about other marques? It doesn't have to be Porsche, as much as I am a fan of them.

The trouble is there is little competitive reason for entering an R-GT car. That Lotus for example, someone could run a privateer one and we don't really know how it would compare to a Tuthill 911, but would surely be uncompetitive against a conventional rally car on most events.

Presumably the hook with these cars when trying to put a budget together is that despite being sports cars that aren't as quick as purpose built rally cars people will come out to see them and mainly hear them. Surely that's more attractive to potential sponsors? I'd like to see the R-GT cup expand, be properly promoted and try and gain some manufacturer support. Porsche vs Lotus vs Alpine vs Nissan is a mouthwatering prospect!

Edit: while I'm dreaming, add BMW & Audi in there too

[Mirek]

Sadly the Lotus R-GT was very quiet car and quite boring car to watch...

[Jack4688`]

Sounds alright to me https://youtu.be/lzuMT3h3dSg Though I agree it is fairly boring to watch, but being a mid-engined sports car it is better to see than most other contemporary rally cars

[Mirek]

I have seen it live. It was quiet and in the wind You could barely hear it at all.

[wildboar]

Tuthill's R-GT Porsche has been approved for gravel rallies, but unfortunately this year's Wales Rally GB is too close to the Rallye Valais (part of R-GT cup):


“The Tuthill Porsche 997 R-GT was recently approved for use on gravel events, so we hope to add more British rallies to next season’s calendar. [...] With so little room for manoeuvre in the FIA R-GT Cup schedule, it’s a shame to miss this year’s Wales Rally GB, but we’ll see what we can do for 2016.”

http://www.tuthillporsche.com/blog/tuthill-porsche-promenade-stages/

[Jack4688`]

Works Porsche team in the BRC next year? :D

I know what this forum is like so I must qualify that statement as a joke right now!

[Mirek]

There have been negotiations about putting Wales Rally GB on the R-GT cup 2016 calendar. I think that Tuthill meant that ;)

[Sulland]

Hommell Berlinette RS GT
a car I have never heard about. Any French that could teach us?

[dimviii]

Hommell Berlinette RS GT
a car I have never heard about. Any French that could teach us?

this has the engine from peugeot 306 gti 6speed.

[Rally Power]

I was a big fan of Echappement magazine in the 80's and 90's...the Hommel Berlinette was a passionate project from Michel Hommel, former racing driver and owner of Hommel press group (with several titles dedicated to motorsport). In the 90's he decided to reinvent the old Alpine A110 ("berlinette") whit the help of Echappement readers, that were able to participate in the new car technical definition! It ended to be a road legal little rwd GT, with tubular chassis, 405Mi16 mechanics (the Pug front axle was used at the rear!) and a racing 6 gearbox. Produced in little numbers at an affordable price, it was homologated into Gr.N/GT when GT cars became allowed in french rallys. Several amateurs crews entered them in local events, without major results. I suppose production ceased in the 2000's, but some of them are still in use.

A full report can be read in this (french) blog:
http://blogautomobile.fr/rendez-voiture-locale-hommell-berlinette-rs-248167#axzz3I7uOhj2r.

[vino_93]

In the past, there has been a cup for these Hommell ;)

Michel Hommel press group owns Echappement, but too Auto Hebdo, the two most important motorsport newspaper in France.

[wildboar]

Nice 3 minute video from Deleceur and his Porsche at Valais Rallye: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-J8dJwbk9o

[Mirek]

Václav Pech with his new car (ex-Ruben Zeltner), photo from team boss Jiří Jírovec (the guy at the left)
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12301626_10203870846690442_1618332277368245520_n.j pg?oh=5cf038e307847905ef1732b924c06d91&oe=56F428A6

He shall drive R-GT cup and some events of Czech championship (maybe complete).

[Simmi]

Has the R-GT calendar been confirmed next year? Same rounds? Would love to see them add Circuit of Ireland. But probably no one wants to stretch it to 6 rounds.

[AndyRAC]

While you can never have enough Porsches, are there any other GT cars suitable for this class? I won't even suggest the Bentley, as that is like a tank....

[tommeke_B]

While you can never have enough Porsches, are there any other GT cars suitable for this class? I won't even suggest the Bentley, as that is like a tank....

There was the Aston Martin in Finland. Also more years ago Prodrive tried to make some Aston Martin GT car, without success... Lotus managed to make a car according to the regulations, and I think it wouldn't be a bad car. In Belgium we've had a 350Z and 370Z and also Porsche Cayman, they should qualify to make a FIA-homologated GT car as well. The Nissan 370Z was as spectacular as the GT3 (video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mfpmmeiIMo ). The problem with almost any possible GT-car apart from Porsche (and Lotus) is that there's not enough weight pushing on the rear wheels, causing lack of traction (very visible in the video of the 370Z), making it too unefficient to rally...

[stefanvv]

There was some project idea with Ford Mustang from some Italian tuner I think, but know how it goes, probably it'd be something like the Bentley?!?

[tommeke_B]

There was some project idea with Ford Mustang from some Italian tuner I think, but know how it goes, probably it'd be something like the Bentley?!?

There was some project for a Mustang from Floral Racing, well-known Belgian team that's running Fiesta R2 and R5 cars. Everything is quiet around the project now, I think someone must be really interested before they will make big investments on it.

[Jack4688`]

Alfa Romeo 4C? This new Alpine, when it comes out?

[wildboar]

Has the R-GT calendar been confirmed next year? Same rounds? Would love to see them add Circuit of Ireland. But probably no one wants to stretch it to 6 rounds.

At least in the regulations for the 2016 Monte Carlo Rally it says, that the rally counts for the FIA RGT Cup for Drivers and FIA RGT Cup for Co-drivers.
http://acm.mc/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SUPPLEMENTARY-REGULATIONS-.pdf

[Rally Power]

I've got so excited I've even put it in the wrong thread...

This one must have a RGT version!!!

http://planetcarsz.com/assets/uploads/PORSCHE%20CAYMAN%20GT4%20CLUBSPORT%202016%2001.jpg

New Cayman GT4 Clubsport, Porsche Motorsport
http://www.porsche.com/international/motorsportandevents/motorsport/customerracing/news/?pool=motorsport&id=c8c2031b-2d28-47d0-afee-78de6fbbe947&lang=en

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Does R-GT regulation allows paddle shift..?

[Rally Power]

Yep! And even homologate a different gearbox, if necessary.

I'm still hypersalivating for this beauty...the 3.8 flat six central mounted in a light compact chassis...what else?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5iYlm56BMY

Please Santa, don't let FIA ruin it and put ASAP a team of Weissach engineers, under the supervision of Mr. Rohrl, working on a full spec (tarmac and gravel) RGT version!!!

[Rally Power]

Still with Cayman fever! Maybe because it doesn't look bulky or fragile like others rally GT's, it really seems suitable for rallying and it'll be a pity if Porsche clients don't get to use it at special stages (even the fever doesn't make believe that Porsche could enter FIA RGT Cup on their own! But they should!).

Talk with project manager
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Jv61IxA-g
Track testing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsKNGQCu_to

[AndyRAC]

The road version won the Evo Car of the Year....would love to see it on the stages.

[Rally Power]

The Master testing GT4 road version at Algarve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyykDmuCxZo
(very poor translation; Rohrl's actually saying how he finds the Cayman perfect for rallying and that he'll push Porsche staff to enter RGT Cup next season...;))

Petrolhead spirit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GmLnDmBW10

[Rally Power]

Finally(?): the new Alpine. RWD, 1.8T, 300HP, 1100KG. If Renault really wants to honor the iconic A110, they must put this one into a ss! Vite!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3-BXLWRAGeM/VoZP4t5S1PI/AAAAAAAAEmU/8u_giCEEF2c/s1600/Alpine-Celebration-patent-images-0.jpg
http://www.carscoops.com/2016/01/long-awaited-alpine-sports-car-debuting.html
2015 Le Mans presentation of the prototype
http://www.lemans.alpine-cars.com/en/

[wildboar]

It looks like the 2016 R-GT Cup will be contested over 4 rounds:
* Circuit of Ireland (7-9 April)
* Ypres Rally (23-25 June)
* Rally France (29 Sep - 2 October)
* Rallye International du Valais (19-22 October)

(from http://www.fia.com/events/r-gt-cup/season-2015/r-gt-cup )

There are no RGT starters in Monte Carlo and now it isn't on the list either.

[Mirek]

That's 2015 page.

[wildboar]

That's 2015 page.

Yes, but the calendar is clearly for 2016 (look at the dates and also the rally selection - Ireland was not part of the cup last year)

[Mirek]

With FIA You never know. Let's see :)

[Andre Oliveira]

Delecour said R-GT is too expensive

[itix]

Well of course it is with the stupid rules that basically dictate that you have to rebuild an already rebuilt porsche race car.
If they had simplified the rules this would maybe not be such a stillborn segment.

[dimviii]

finally seems that everybody understands that this stupid category has no place at rallies.

[tommeke_B]

finally seems that everybody understands that this stupid category has no place at rallies.

I really like it, on national and local events. In Belgium they bring a great attraction to the stages, especially for people who are not familiar to rallying they are great to watch. Also for a driver who has no big ambitions, these cars can give more fun for less money than R5 cars. But so do historic cars, which are very popular here... But indeed they're not meant for a real competition like ERC/WRC, they don't really belong there. Those GT cars will never be competitive on more than a handful of events.

[Ucci]

finally seems that everybody understands that this stupid category has no place at rallies.

Tell this to Zeltner, Dobberkau, Vallejo, Fuster, Pech,Dumas.....just look to Spanish tarmac championship...without GT cars it would be very booring.

[Mirek]

IMHO driving Porsche wasn't Pech's own idea and I don't think he is very happy about it either...

Also for our championship it's nothing good. Now Kopecký will have zero competition (yes, it looks like Škoda wants him to win again).

[Jarek Z]

finally seems that everybody understands that this stupid category has no place at rallies.

I don't know why you say so. When I saw Condroz and Haspengouw rallies in Belgium, both the Porsche of Marc Duez and the Nissan 350Z of Chris van Woensel were one of the greatest attractions of those events. I think GT cars add some colours to the boring modern rally scene.

[Jarek Z]

Duez and his Porsche, Condroz Rally 2010

http://foto.rallyonline.pl/GALERIA/jarekz/condroz2010/condroz2010_jzagorny27.jpg

[Jarek Z]

van Woensel and his Nissan, Rally Haspengouw 2011

http://foto.rallyonline.pl/GALERIA/jarekz/haspengouw2011/haspengouw2011_jzagorny23.jpg

[AndyRAC]

Well of course it is with the stupid rules that basically dictate that you have to rebuild an already rebuilt porsche race car.
If they had simplified the rules this would maybe not be such a stillborn segment.

Excuse the cynicism; the FiA get their way. They make a series for GT cars - but put major hurdles in the way of anyone showing interest; a few entries and voila.....
You do wonder how much pressure the FiA were under from the manufacturers, who wouldn't like the idea of these cars taking any interest away from their 'family hatchbacks'.

[Jarek Z]

You do wonder how much pressure the FiA were under from the manufacturers, who wouldn't like the idea of these cars taking any interest away from their 'family hatchbacks'.

The pressure cannot be big, can it? How many manufacturers do we have in the WRC? 3 or 4?

[Mirek]

Andy, I think that You're seeking the main problem where it isn't. The main issue is that GT manufacturers are not interested in rallying at all. Even Porsche as a company isn't.

[dimviii]

I don't know why you say so. When I saw Condroz and Haspengouw rallies in Belgium, both the Porsche of Marc Duez and the Nissan 350Z of Chris van Woensel were one of the greatest attractions of those events. I think GT cars add some colours to the boring modern rally scene.

as i ve said plenty of times,for me is not an attraction when a more powerfull with wider tyres car competes against other cars.Also is not an attraction when it is so slow at corners,and just uses its power at straights.
These cars have nothing to do at rallies,they are not for rallies.
All these drivers would be much more usefull for all rally fans if they drove s2000/r5 cars.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

I find the lack of compact RWD sportscars disturbing.


Tell this to Zeltner, Dobberkau, Vallejo, Fuster, Pech,Dumas.....just look to Spanish tarmac championship...without GT cars it would be very booring.
They can't speak English.. :p (Please don't take this seriously)

[Rally Power]

Above all, RGT is one more evidence of the current FIA practice of restraining rally car building to manus official tuners. It's true they've allowed private tuners to homologate GT cars, but the system is too hard and expensive, that's why it failled.

I've reed the previous pro and cons remarks and like some of you I found some current GT's too bulky and overpowered for rally (I got 'traumatized' by JP Fontes Aston Martin V12 portuguese outings), but also as many says there's need for more diversity in rallysport.

With proper regs (limited cubic capacity, external dimensions, overall weight, etc) and easier homologation processes, GT cars as the Cayman, the 4C or the new A120 could become suitable alternatives in those countries that got all tarmac rally series. They even doesn't need to be winning champs machines, as they are entertaining enought to drive (and watch) and can get reasonable runing costs (Vallejo spend half of an R5 budget with his 911, during Spanish championship).

Btw, some GT drivers has proven that they aren't only straight fast:https://youtu.be/1Za0gkw3tSI?t=67

[mousti]

What program will Pech do now? It seems RGT cup is already death..

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk

[Mirek]

He will drive in CZ for sure and the rest? We'll see but if R-GT cup is really dead than I see no reason to spend money for international homologation.

[Ucci]

Andy, I think that You're seeking the main problem where it isn't. The main issue is that GT manufacturers are not interested in rallying at all. Even Porsche as a company isn't.

100% agree. I was surpried that even in Germany, where Zeltner was 2014 & 2015 rally champion, his title was nowhere mentioned even in the Porsche Internal communication means (I'm professionally connected to Porsche brand).....no word in the Internal Magazine, internet connection....nothing, nada, niente, nič....Just fuc*#k Le-Mans.....

[Lundefaret]

I think FIA strangled the GT-cup before it had begun, with their cars restrictions.
Why can't the Porsche be allowed to breathe freely?

[Mirek]

A lot would be possible if there were manufacturers behind the negotiations with FIA but since those are not interested there is no-one strong enough to push on FIA.

[Ucci]

I think FIA strangled the GT-cup before it had begun, with their cars restrictions.
Why can't the Porsche be allowed to breathe freely?

Exactly, they shouldn't be hampered. Ruben Zeltner explained that the 911 (997)GT3 Cup car with the restrictor is an uninteresting car to race with it, that way he moved to H-class (996 model with sequential gearbox, without restriction).

[dimviii]

I think FIA strangled the GT-cup before it had begun, with their cars restrictions.
Why can't the Porsche be allowed to breathe freely?
yes the problem was that they were underpowered...

[dimviii]

Exactly, they shouldn't be hampered. Ruben Zeltner explained that the 911 (997)GT3 Cup car with the restrictor is an uninteresting car to race with it, that way he moved to H-class (996 model with sequential gearbox, without restriction).

rallies always had restrictions at every class/category.At tyres width,at power via restrictors.They can rent a r5 and compete if they find the 911 underpowered.

[CWJ]

Ruben Zeltner explained that the 911 (997)GT3 Cup car with the restrictor is an uninteresting car to race with it, that way he moved to H-class (996 model with sequential gearbox, without restriction).

Gr. H is without restrictor but for sure with restrictions. Estimate 3.6L 420 hp and 1300 kg so that will be no monster at all.

[Ucci]

Gr. H is without restrictor but for sure with restrictions. Estimate 3.6L 420 hp and 1300 kg so that will be no monster at all.

Of course this is no monster...it can not be; the basic layout of the car older than 50 years, the car is almost undrivable in the wet conditions (light front end of the car, prone for aquaplaning), short suspension travel...this is far from ideal rally car.
That way anybody who is willing to take a start at rally with P911 (no matter the car's generation) is a hero for me...and if in the end this driver is faster than R5/S2000 (even in ideal conditions), you have to risk a lot. Remember - no car is driving by itself, it needs a driver.

[itix]

There are plenty of fun cars in the segment for the GT-class and if it was possible to cheapen the build and homologation process and still make them a fraction slower than the R5 cars, hopefully we'd have something else than endless boring Porsche hahahaha.

Also it would be nice to see something other than Tarmac rallies. Cars like the Lancia stratos and the Renault Alpine A-110 were GT cars and no one said they weren't real rally cars.

[stefanvv]

Also it would be nice to see something other than Tarmac rallies. Cars like the Lancia stratos and the Renault Alpine A-110 were GT cars and no one said they weren't real rally cars.

There was 911 also at that time in rallies.

[itix]

...but there were other cars. The FIA GT-class so far has only seen Porsche

[AndyRAC]

Let's be honest; there are many people, including probably the FiA who don't want GT/ Sportscars on the stages. Forgetting that they were an early part of the sport......

[RAS007]

Let's be honest; there are many people, including probably the FiA who don't want GT/ Sportscars on the stages. Forgetting that they were an early part of the sport......

The FIA clearly don't want the GT class, otherwise the regs would have been simpler. It's a shame in my opinion; the WRC is in such a turgid state, some variation, any variety would be good. People who say that GT cars have no place on the stages though, have no idea what they are talking about, and probably need a history lesson.

[Lundefaret]

Simple regulations allowing for everything from Porsches and Ferraris to Lotus Exiles etc - as we have seen in some southern European countries - would allow for a much bigger spectacle for both national and WRC audiences.
Sound and sights are very important.

But the FIA have a compulsory-regulation-syndrome, leading among other things to a DS3 R3T - a car directed to up and coming youth - to cost close to 100.000 Eur - with is just crazy when You can have a MINI John Cooper Works - with more hp, sequential etc etc asphalt cup car for 40.000 Eur.

The internationally homologated rally cars are almost all "shopping trollies" with boring looks and performance. These are directed to the up and coming youth, but the up and coming youth are only one small part of all rally drivers. The wast majority is men from 30-50 who can drive of their own income.

A GT class could fill a void for some of these men because You can drive a very cool car, with a budget with in reasonable boundaries. This could lead to a lot more drivers on the grid both nationally and internationally (WRC).

To "force" these cars to be slower than R5 cars on tarmac is just counter productive.

But FIA dont want this class, and attack it in "their way" as they now attack the Le Mans race by both regulations and having an F1 race running the same weekend.

[Sulland]

There are several of FIAs sister organisations, like FIFA and IAAF where the focus is wrong.
They are more focused on sponsors, manufacurers and money, than working for the athletes and the ones paying for the whole thing - us, the fans and customers.

We will see that the corruption hunters will focus more on sport, and start at the top level, the International Federations.
Hopefully FIA will go through the scrutiny with flying colors......

But if I had a saying in the rally future I would change the following:
- Only manufacturer teams are allowed to use WRCars (R6), the rest will have to start in WRC2. No full manufacturer teams at this level.
- make it easier to get international homologation as a tuner, without the manufacturers blessing.
- make R4 a privat tuners class. 4wd, Standard engine, gearbox and ecu.

FIA need to transform and swap focus from manufacturers to the Athletes!

[dimviii]

Let's be honest; there are many people, including probably the FiA who don't want GT/ Sportscars on the stages. Forgetting that they were an early part of the sport......

at these early days a small suspension travel wasn t so big handicap,cause almost all cars hadnt got todays suspension travel.At these days all cars were 2 wheel drive.Dont confuse these days with days after 40 years.

[dimviii]

. People who say that GT cars have no place on the stages though, have no idea what they are talking about, and probably need a history lesson.

you can always teach us a lesson, which regulations they will allow to a 911 for example be competetive at mud/snow/gravel/wet asphalt.
All these circumstances you find at rallies.
When you answer this question you will see who has a clue about rallies or not,and if a GT car has future at rallies.

[AndyRAC]

at these early days a small suspension travel wasn t so big handicap,cause almost all cars hadnt got todays suspension travel.At these days all cars were 2 wheel drive.Dont confuse these days with days after 40 years.

I'm not confusing anything. GT cars have had no 'rallying' development unlike the current rally cars - so it's not surprising they're not suited to the stages.

[Mirek]

No stock cars (except Impreza STIs and Evos) had any rally development just like GTs. It's the cost of this additional development what makes the real rally cars expensive. GTs which shall be good for anything more than some fun will be also very expensive. Of course You can use relatively cheap GT quite well on dry asphalt but since it's quite useless for gravel, snow or mud it will never become anything significant no matter how You try. For that sole reason of being useful just in particular conditions nobody with serious interest in international rallying will ever use GT for his campaign. It's just like that. You can't convert 911 into a kind of Dakar buggy for few bucks to make it running well on Sardinia.

[RAS007]

you can always teach us a lesson, which regulations they will allow to a 911 for example be competetive at mud/snow/gravel/wet asphalt.
All these circumstances you find at rallies.
When you answer this question you will see who has a clue about rallies or not,and if a GT car has future at rallies.

I'm not sure I could teach you anything; you do seem to be a rather disagreeable fellow. Your opinions are not facts, you know.

[Mirek]

So how do You make a GT competitive on gravel or snow?

[RAS007]

So how do You make a GT competitive on gravel or snow?

I have no idea, and have never stated otherwise. I like to see the GT cars on the stages, and think there is a place for them. I certainly do not agree with some on here who say these cars "have no place" on the stages.

[Mirek]

It's a vicious circle, You know. The basis of all is that GTs are not suitable for anything but particular friendly conditions. No matter which rules You create they will always stay a minority on the side of the main rally course just because of that.

For the very same reason there are no manufacturers interested in GT category. Why shall they be when they know that only a total redesign of the whole car can make it fast on gravel or snow?

The FIA rules are seen here as more important than they are as they neither create nor remove the main issue which I just named. No rules can do that and in the same time keep cost affordable.

Dimviii wrote that maybe in harsh way but he is right and it's not the rules what disqualify GTs from becoming more than a curiosity in the rally world.

[Lundefaret]

It's a vicious circle, You know. The basis of all is that GTs are not suitable for anything but particular friendly conditions. No matter which rules You create they will always stay a minority on the side of the main rally course just because of that.

For the very same reason there are no manufacturers interested in GT category. Why shall they be when they know that only a total redesign of the whole car can make it fast on gravel or snow?

The FIA rules are seen here as more important than they are as they neither create nor remove the main issue which I just named. No rules can do that and in the same time keep cost affordable.

Dimviii wrote that maybe in harsh way but he is right and it's not the rules what disqualify GTs from becoming more than a curiosity in the rally world.

Tuthill GT3 Porsche 911 on gravel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7afNZsAvqI

Its really no prob if the cars are more suited to asphalt, tough relatives "easy" development will make them suitable for more varied surfaces.
But only asphalt is okay, they are still exiting!

[Mirek]

Nice video, I know it but what have You tried to say by that? It's sport, it's about being fast, not about being spectacular, for God's sake. How many teams in the world buy cars for spectacle and not for speed? Less than 5% maybe?

No matter how spectacular the car on the video is, it's still too slow for anything else than some fun and that's what I said - even if You allow more freedom in the rules the car will stay a curiosity (this particular gravel Porsche has different suspension than FIA allows).

[Lundefaret]

Nice video, I know it but what have You tried to say by that? It's sport, it's about being fast, not about being spectacular, for God's sake. How many teams in the world buy cars for spectacle and not for speed? Less than 5% maybe?

No matter how spectacular the car on the video is, it's still too slow for anything else than some fun and that's what I said - even if You allow more freedom in the rules the car will stay a curiosity (this particular gravel Porsche has different suspension than FIA allows).

I think You miss my point a little Mirek, so I will clearify:
- First: A cars speed should be compared vs the cars of the same class. Comparing an R2 to an R5 is just as unfair as comparing a RGT to an R5, even do the RGT can give the R5 a run for the money on some tarmac event - but thats beside the point.
- Second: For a driver - lets say a gentleman driver - an R5 can be to "serious", with tight battles with a lot of Young talents, which can take some of the fun out of the rallying, because You really want to compete with drivers in a similar situation like Your self.
- Thirdly: Tough the R5 cars are exiting because of their performance, the RGT cars can be more exiting in some perspectives to both the spectators and some drivers. Sound, driving experience, cool brands etc.

I think its no coincidence that the historic rally scene is so popular, because its a place where "gentleman drivers" can drive cool cars for fun. Like Porsches.
The historic rally scene have a huge challenge on their hands. Its now homologated 4WD cars that will take the seriousness, speed and cost to a totally new level, with will threaten the sport.

I think RGT could be a great asset to both national and international events, and I also think that if for example Tuthill was allowed to develop a car with out the overly restricted regulation of today, it also could attract others.

For me, A Ferrari, Porsche, Gordon, McLaren, Lotus-battle could be a very cool add on to some events :)

[RAS007]

I think You miss my point a little Mirek, so I will clearify:
- First: A cars speed should be compared vs the cars of the same class. Comparing an R2 to an R5 is just as unfair as comparing a RGT to an R5, even do the RGT can give the R5 a run for the money on some tarmac event - but thats beside the point.
- Second: For a driver - lets say a gentleman driver - an R5 can be to "serious", with tight battles with a lot of Young talents, which can take some of the fun out of the rallying, because You really want to compete with drivers in a similar situation like Your self.
- Thirdly: Tough the R5 cars are exiting because of their performance, the RGT cars can be more exiting in some perspectives to both the spectators and some drivers. Sound, driving experience, cool brands etc.

I think its no coincidence that the historic rally scene is so popular, because its a place where "gentleman drivers" can drive cool cars for fun. Like Porsches.
The historic rally scene have a huge challenge on their hands. Its now homologated 4WD cars that will take the seriousness, speed and cost to a totally new level, with will threaten the sport.

I think RGT could be a great asset to both national and international events, and I also think that if for example Tuthill was allowed to develop a car with out the overly restricted regulation of today, it also could attract others.

For me, A Ferrari, Porsche, Gordon, McLaren, Lotus-battle could be a very cool add on to some events :)

Will someone please give this man a cigar?

[dimviii]

I'm not sure I could teach you anything; you do seem to be a rather disagreeable fellow. Your opinions are not facts, you know.

no my opinion are ONLY facts.Thats why GT are dissapearing.
So you haven t got a clue how you can make a GT car competetive at rallies.
You just ''like'' them,you like the engine sound,and you wait somebody to pay 100-200-300k euro without having the chance to compete against a r5 car,except some examples with bigger restrictors and just at dry smooth asphalt, with wide roads rallies.
Nobody will buy them.
It s really strange that is so difficult to understand something so simple.

[stefanvv]

I don't think anyone was considering RGT as R5 beater or playground for young developing drivers. It is just for fun.

[dimviii]

I don't think anyone was considering RGT as R5 beater or playground for young developing drivers. It is just for fun.

plenty of them at this topic,and the problem was the regulations that were strict with GT cars.

[stefanvv]

It's sport, it's about being fast, not about being spectacular, for God's sake.

Yes, it is sport and it has different categories, some faster than others and every class has its audience and participants. BTW I don't think WRC cars are fast in MC with lot of slush either, but its like that, just rules.

[stefanvv]

plenty of them at this topic,and the problem was the regulations that were strict with GT cars.

Yes, sure, in some countries, with some drivers against some others, with some rules, on some rally conditions - fact. Spectacular non-the-less.

[Mirek]

I think You miss my point a little Mirek, so I will clearify:
- First: A cars speed should be compared vs the cars of the same class. Comparing an R2 to an R5 is just as unfair as comparing a RGT to an R5, even do the RGT can give the R5 a run for the money on some tarmac event - but thats beside the point.
- Second: For a driver - lets say a gentleman driver - an R5 can be to "serious", with tight battles with a lot of Young talents, which can take some of the fun out of the rallying, because You really want to compete with drivers in a similar situation like Your self.
- Thirdly: Tough the R5 cars are exiting because of their performance, the RGT cars can be more exiting in some perspectives to both the spectators and some drivers. Sound, driving experience, cool brands etc.

I think its no coincidence that the historic rally scene is so popular, because its a place where "gentleman drivers" can drive cool cars for fun. Like Porsches.
The historic rally scene have a huge challenge on their hands. Its now homologated 4WD cars that will take the seriousness, speed and cost to a totally new level, with will threaten the sport.

I think RGT could be a great asset to both national and international events, and I also think that if for example Tuthill was allowed to develop a car with out the overly restricted regulation of today, it also could attract others.

For me, A Ferrari, Porsche, Gordon, McLaren, Lotus-battle could be a very cool add on to some events :)

You are too optimistic. There is a lot of countries where GTs have been allowed for years, sometimes with as free rules as one can imagine (Spain for example) and still there is a handful of them there. There is no hope they could become something more on international level as the international level unlike Spanish asphalt championship is made of different surfaces.

Don't get me wrong, I like them as they are something different but I don't see any way how they could become something serious in rallying. They are simply too specialized and too limited.

About classes... yes, there are different classes but tell me why someone who really wants to race would compete in overall classification against R2 or at best R3 cars with Porsche 911? There are for sure several people who don't care but else?

[SubaruNorway]

About classes... yes, there are different classes but tell me why someone who really wants to race would compete in overall classification against R2 or at best R3 cars with Porsche 911? There are for sure several people who don't care but else?

If that mattered nobody would bother driving old Volvo's and BMW's with almost twice the horsepower than the R2 which they get beaten by all the time here in Norway.

[Mirek]

If that mattered nobody would bother driving old Volvo's and BMW's with almost twice the horsepower than the R2 which they get beaten by all the time here in Norway.

Do those old E36 cost 100 000 Euro already before doing any modification to start rallying? ;)

After a quick look into Czech bazaars I found that I can buy E36 for cca 1000 Euro. Tell me where I can buy 911 for such money and I'll happily have some fun on stages with it :p

[RAS007]

no my opinion are ONLY facts.Thats why GT are dissapearing.
So you haven t got a clue how you can make a GT car competetive at rallies.
You just ''like'' them,you like the engine sound,and you wait somebody to pay 100-200-300k euro without having the chance to compete against a r5 car,except some examples with bigger restrictors and just at dry smooth asphalt, with wide roads rallies.
Nobody will buy them.
It s really strange that is so difficult to understand something so simple.

Do you even understand why there are different competition classes in rallying? Only somebody who didn't would think that R-GT should be competing with R5, or any other class for that matter. Look, I know it's hard for you since your leotarded hero retired, but please, don't take it out on me.

[Mirek]

Please try to understand as well that there are overall results. Porsche is not Adam or Twingo. It has a decent name in the motorsport world, quite a big name. How many people are willing to fight Twingos or Adams with 911? The more why shall Porsche itself support such silly idea? For sure somebody enjoys drifting without bothering with results but there will be always just a few of those and You can't build a bright future of GTs around their enthusiasm.

[dimviii]

Do you even understand why there are different competition classes in rallying? Only somebody who didn't would think that R-GT should be competing with R5, or any other class for that matter.

No you have to understand that this category is DEAD.
i tried to explain you and some others, why there will be only few drivers that they will buy them, and compete with these cars,that are not suited for rally.
Try to understand it.Dont confuse the reasons with restrictions,and classes,and several retarded excuses.



Look, I know it's hard for you since your leotarded hero retired, but please, don't take it out on me.
he is retired, but you mentioning him at regardless threads.I see the pain still exists.

[RAS007]

No you have to understand that this category is DEAD.
i tried to explain you and some others, why there will be only few drivers that they will buy them, and compete with these cars,that are not suited for rally.
Try to understand it.Dont confuse the reasons with restrictions,and classes,and several retarded excuses.



he is retired, but you mentioning him at regardless threads.I see the pain still exists.

I am not retarded you fuckwit, and again, your opinions are not facts. The only pain is your broken heart, that your beloved hero can no longer cruise to victory against nobodies and claim to be a champion, while you post photo after photo of him and try to mention him in every post. You know, there's therapy for things like that.

[dimviii]

I am not retarded you fuckwit, and again, your opinions are not facts. The only pain is your broken heart, that your beloved hero can no longer cruise to victory against nobodies and claim to be a champion, while you post photo after photo of him and try to mention him in every post. You know, there's therapy for things like that.

just 7 days more....I know you suffer but we cant do something. Patience only and the pain will slowly dissapear.

[RAS007]

just 7 days more....I know you suffer but we cant do something. Patience only and the pain will slowly dissapear.

Did someone say something? All I heard was a massive long farting noise.....

[Mirek]

I am not retarded you fuckwit, and again, your opinions are not facts. The only pain is your broken heart, that your beloved hero can no longer cruise to victory against nobodies and claim to be a champion, while you post photo after photo of him and try to mention him in every post. You know, there's therapy for things like that.


Did someone say something? All I heard was a massive long farting noise.....

Quoted for the record of stupid insults against other members.

Please behave like an adult person and stop with insults. It tells a lot about who You are if You can't behave in a civilized manner. I did not report You but I will do that next time.


Look, I know it's hard for you since your leotarded hero retired, but please, don't take it out on me.

This is called trolling. Stop with that please.

[itix]

Thank you Mirek!

Gee, the fuck happened here? Take it easy, it's the best sport in the world and we are all different... It is not the apocalypse... All beer in the world didn't run out. Relax!

[RAS007]

Quoted for the record of stupid insults against other members.

Please behave like an adult person and stop with insults. It tells a lot about who You are if You can't behave in a civilized manner. I did not report You but I will do that next time.



This is called trolling. Stop with that please.

Are you going to apply this evenly, or just to me because you happen to disagree with me? If you read the thread, the member in question heavily implied, more than once, that I was "retarded", because I "like" R-GT cars and I didn't agree that, amongst other things, his "opinions are ONLY facts" (wow!), and that R-GT is "DEAD", So, it's not an insult to say that someone is "retarded" if they don't agree with you? I'll remember that for future reference.

[tommeke_B]

I know some people here dream to see GT cars on stages with great drivers and think it's the best thing that could ever happen to the world of rallying. But it's not going to happen, for obvious reasons mentioned many times here. No need to be angry behind your keyboard because of that... I don't see Dimviii insulting anyone, he's telling that the category is dead (on international level) and he's absolutely right.

[Ucci]

I don't see Dimviii insulting anyone, he's telling that the category is dead (on international level) and he's absolutely right.

Excatly, we will still enjoy in great driving skills of Spanish GT drivers (thanks god that at least there the GT cars are not hampered). Not forget Dutch, Belgium, Czech Republik, Germany....
Dimvii&Co will simply skipped events in mentioned countries and enjoy in WRC, ERC.
Long live the GT class!

[Lundefaret]

For each year more and more of international motor sport and rally sport is regulated. This means that every car is getting more similar.

We have had times in the WRC where FWD, RWD, 4WD, front engine, mid engine, family car, coupe, sports car all competed against each other. Its obvious that this leads to a broader appeal.

Now we have only one solution, either You drive R1, R2, R3, R5 or the WRC class, and thats a B-segment car.

I think this is bad for the business of rally, because it strangles the marketing and public appeal.

RGT could have been a good way to appeal to more car fans - with would strengthen the whole rally concept, but when its made unnecessarily difficult to develop and homologate, and the cars are strangled with restrictors etc, its not going to fly.

[Mirek]

What You say is true but we have to see that GTs are cars of high class, expensive, fast with very big reputation. These cars must be faster than some B-segment shopping bags from some Korean carmaker but they are not. It doesn't work to pretend that it's no problem because it is a real problem and main reason why manufacturers don't give a shit about taking part in rallies. I know some people from Porsche, they are very proud on their cars and they want to beat anyone in their way - be it in Le Mans, on Nordschleiffe or wherever and they don't care how much it costs. They can't accept entering a battle which is lost already before it started.

There's only one way to bring GTs fully in rallying - to allow them to win. That will naturally make them a lot more expensive but it would bring the manufacturers in. After that it is possible to introduce something like "GT light" or whatever as a kind of gr.N GT level. I can't see any other way how this can work...

[pantealex]

Peugeot 306 Maxi was not competitive in Gravel, Snow, Wet,
Why R-GT needs to be fast everywhere ?

I was happy when Jani Ylipahkala started with 911 GT3 (997) at Rally Finland.
I know that EvoX or R2 are faster but I rather see some GT-cars.

[N.O.T]

R-GT is just a car for show nothing more, if they allow them to run unrestricted then something could come out of them on tarmac, for now they are nothing for people who want a career in the sport.

[Mirek]

Peugeot 306 Maxi was not competitive in Gravel, Snow, Wet,
Why R-GT needs to be fast everywhere ?

I was happy when Jani Ylipahkala started with 911 GT3 (997) at Rally Finland.
I know that EvoX or R2 are faster but I rather see some GT-cars.

That's different case for many reasons. First 306 maxi was able to win in overall classification, RGT are nowhere close to that. Second 306 Maxi was in no way a cheap car. It was very expensive hi-tech machine. I doubt the running cost was lower than of WRC. And the last thing Peugeot 306 isn't a car which in stock version costs 10x more than their direct competitors. While 306 maxi was great for the marketing promotion of stock 306, such thing definitely can't be said about RGT in relation to stock 911. The marketing value of RGT for Porsche is null or even negative.

[Jarek Z]

Peugeot 306 Maxi was not competitive in Gravel, Snow, Wet,
Why R-GT needs to be fast everywhere ?

Very good point! The same applies to Renault Maxi Megane and Renault Clio Maxi. Those cars have never been successful on loose surface. Does that mean that they do not belong in rallying?

http://px6.streetfire.net/0001/37/01/1517310_600.jpg

[tommeke_B]

Anyone remember what FIA did when these cars started winning on tarmac?... So why would FIA allow regulations to let GT cars win in certain events?

[Jarek Z]

Anyone remember what FIA did when these cars started winning on tarmac?

As far as I remember, FIA changed regulations to make those cars heavier and be sure they will never win again. Is that right?

[tommeke_B]

Indeed. I think it was in Corsica or Catalunya that there was a lot of commotion about it. Citroën Xsara Kitcars were winning, I think it was mainly Toyota that complained about it being unfair.

[Mirek]

Yes, they added weight and forbid traction control.

[Andre Oliveira]

Armindo Araújo was portuguese champion (mix rallies) with Saxo Kit Car against 4wd cars. Porsche of atual teams can't do the same. It is not a rally car. A Cayman 4x4 maybe can be, a 997 RWD no.

[RAS007]

Those cars have never been successful on loose surface. Does that mean that they do not belong in rallying?

http://px6.streetfire.net/0001/37/01/1517310_600.jpg

Apparently it does, at least according to the sages on these forums.

[Franky]

I just can't understand how some can't understand what the others are telling them

[N.O.T]

I just can't understand how some can't understand what the others are telling them

Congratulations kid, you just found one the No1 problem of humanity... here is a complimentary watch and some flowers for your effort.

[RAS007]

I just can't understand how some can't understand what the others are telling them

Well, it's always going to be more difficult when you start by telling people that your opinions are actually facts.

[AndyRAC]

Indeed. I think it was in Corsica or Catalunya that there was a lot of commotion about it. Citroën Xsara Kitcars were winning, I think it was mainly Toyota that complained about it being unfair.

From 1997-99 the F2 cars added extra interest to the Tarmac rounds - something that any sport should want. But not the WRC. The WRCar teams kicked up a stink because they were being beaten by the F2 Kit cars......awww, what a shame. As it was, the Xsara Kit car was the only F2 car to win a full WRC round outright, in the hands of Bugalski, in Catalunya & Corsica; but there were podiums as well for the 306 Maxi in earlier 97/98.

I like the suggestion on another forum of an European International Tarmac series - far more 'road relevant' than a series made up of lots of dry, dusty gravel events. Of course it will never / can't happen.

[Mirek]

You have a brilliant point with the tarmac series. ERC is quite close to that, 8 rounds of 10 are counted and 6 of the events are asphalt ones. That's quite close to an asphalt series and for such the GTs may make sense. What is still necessary is to allow them to win in overall classification, without that it will be another fail like so far.

This is maybe something what Eurosport should use to its advantage. So far there has been a pressure from FIA to make ERC as similar to WRC as possible. Maybe it would be a good idea to revert the trend and go own way and to promote GT cars to +/- equal status with R5 (that's difficult to balance of course) and try to bring manufacturers there. It's a run for longer time but who knows maybe it can be the way.

Anyway for success of GTs they can't be introduced to be pushed aside into some nameless cup and made so slow that they don't speak into the overall results. They must be allowed to fight for a real title and they must be allowed to fast enough to achieve that.

[Rally Power]

I like the suggestion on another forum of an European International Tarmac series - far more 'road relevant' than a series made up of lots of dry, dusty gravel events. Of course it will never / can't happen.

That's what RGT Cup could be, but there's no need to turn ERC into a tarmac rally series because the real issue is FIA attitude towards Gt’s in rally.

RGT regs shows that FIA is very hypocrite on this matter. They recognize there’s a market for it (the several national tarmac rally champs around Europe) but they don’t want RGT to be a top category in european rallying and come out with a penalizing regulation.

Because there are no manus involved, RGT crisis doesn't really bother FIA officials, but they should have more respect for privateers and get some decent rules.

[Jack4688`]

For me, A Ferrari, Porsche, Gordon, McLaren, Lotus-battle could be a very cool add on to some events :)

A what?! :D

[Mirek]

They only Gordon I know (besides the Dakar driver) is a little Czech company producing a roadster similar to Morgan Aero.

[Jack4688`]

I'd like to see them have their own series i.e. not at rallies currently part of the WRC/ERC etc. so that they were competing at the top of the event billing. Of course such events would need some amount of domestic entries to make it viable for the respective rally promoters so therefore would need an event where no entry in an R5 or above is permitted.

For example two very good European events not currently part of the WRC or ERC are Rallye du Valais and Rali da Madeira but imagine telling the Swiss & Portuguese/Madeiran drivers who have an S2000 or R5 car they will no longer be competing there because the RGTs are what the fans want to see and we can't have you beating them... :(

[Lundefaret]

A what?! :D

Sorry, Gordini ;)

[Lundefaret]

From 1997-99 the F2 cars added extra interest to the Tarmac rounds - something that any sport should want. But not the WRC. The WRCar teams kicked up a stink because they were being beaten by the F2 Kit cars......awww, what a shame. As it was, the Xsara Kit car was the only F2 car to win a full WRC round outright, in the hands of Bugalski, in Catalunya & Corsica; but there were podiums as well for the 306 Maxi in earlier 97/98.

I like the suggestion on another forum of an European International Tarmac series - far more 'road relevant' than a series made up of lots of dry, dusty gravel events. Of course it will never / can't happen.

I think You are right on the money.

The Kit Car/F2 vs WRC was the last time we really had a battle between formats, and it was incredibly exciting!

If Kit-Car esque cars, could meet GT cars vs WRC cars (or R5 cars in an European series), that would surely ad to the spectacle - and they all should be able to fight for the overall win.

[Jarek Z]

It seems there is a new GT car in Austria?
https://www.facebook.com/RuinerAutohaus/photos/a.904108352960712.1073741828.897889740249240/996197580418455/?type=3&theater

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/11707846_935466166542202_8774364891932559873_o.jpg

[dupanton]

It seems there is a new GT car in Austria?
https://www.facebook.com/RuinerAutohaus/photos/a.904108352960712.1073741828.897889740249240/996197580418455/?type=3&theater

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/11707846_935466166542202_8774364891932559873_o.jpg

There is a cup with these in Hollland.
And before, the belgian Chris van Woensel made one too, now it is in France.

[vino_93]

Not sure if it's still in France. Mauffrey changed from the Nissan to a 208 T16.

[tommeke_B]

Van Woensel's Nissan 350Z was sold to some German driver if I'm correct, so who knows, this could be the car. The faster successor of it, Van Woensel's 370Z, has been sold to Mauffrey indeed, I think he still owns it?

[vino_93]

Not sure for Mauffrey. He didn't use it a lot in 2014, and then he switched to 208 T16, and didn't use it anymore. And that costs a lot ...

[Jarek Z]

Nice! GT cars are present in the official video of the German Rally Championship:
https://www.facebook.com/ADACRallye/videos/815273331916776/

[Rally Power]

Cool video Jarek!

Also cool is the last Darrian GTR model. British motorsport craftsmanship at his best!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYm6rPGWAAEHlEr.jpg

http://www.darrian.co.uk/2015_darrian_t90gtr.html

[tc10a]

It seems there is a new GT car in Austria?
https://www.facebook.com/RuinerAutohaus/photos/a.904108352960712.1073741828.897889740249240/996197580418455/?type=3&theater

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/11707846_935466166542202_8774364891932559873_o.jpg

The Nissan 350Z is driving since many years in Austria.
At least since 2012 season.

[wildboar]

Tuthill's R-GT Porsche (the one the Delecour raced last year), is for sale:
http://www.tuthillporsche.com/product/porsche-997-r-gt-rally-car/

[Mirek]

Is somebody willing to pay so much for a car which is near useless on international scene?

[AL14]

Is somebody willing to pay so much for a car which is near useless on international scene?
Maybe they count on some rich guy that want to win some trophy or say his friends he won something in motorsport hiding the fact he was against only one or two opponents.
Look at that description: "rally Corsica winner". Lol!

[M5]

This one has some history to follow up.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/94397/renault-alpine-vision-concept-revealed-pictures#13
Would make a nice RGT car.

[mm1]

For a gentlemen driver it`s not such a bad idea (if you drive for your own pleasure), it`s an awesome car, just not fast enough for top spots.

[Sulland]

This one has some history to follow up.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/94397/renault-alpine-vision-concept-revealed-pictures#13
Would make a nice RGT car.


Could be a perfect RGT Cup Car, if Alpine wanted to!
Will have a hard time with the Porsches I guess!

[Ucci]

Is somebody willing to pay so much for a car which is near useless on international scene?

If the car will be looked affter in a proper way, the price will definetly rocket in the sky in next years (as with all 911's with racing heritage).

[Rally Power]

After years dominating the Spanish tarmac rally championship (CERA), this year 911's are going to have a 41,2mm restrictor.

According to top Porsche drivers, these was a drastic move from local ASN (RFEA), because the cars will lose more than 100hp, becoming 2 to 3 seconds/km slower. Some of them are selling their cars, others will stop competing at CERA.

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/2016/02/15/ivan-ares-habla-de-un-futuro-muy-negro-para-los-porsche-en-el-nacional/

[AndyRAC]

After years dominating the Spanish tarmac rally championship (CERA), this year 911's are going to have a 41,2mm restrictor.

According to top Porsche drivers, these was a drastic move from local ASN (RFEA), because the cars will lose more than 100hp, becoming 2 to 3 seconds/km slower. Some of them are selling their cars, others will stop competing at CERA.

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/2016/02/15/ivan-ares-habla-de-un-futuro-muy-negro-para-los-porsche-en-el-nacional/

Hmm, why??? Ridiculous....great way to run the sport - get rid of crowd pleasing cars.

[Ucci]

After years dominating the Spanish tarmac rally championship (CERA), this year 911's are going to have a 41,2mm restrictor.

According to top Porsche drivers, these was a drastic move from local ASN (RFEA), because the cars will lose more than 100hp, becoming 2 to 3 seconds/km slower. Some of them are selling their cars, others will stop competing at CERA.

http://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/2016/02/15/ivan-ares-habla-de-un-futuro-muy-negro-para-los-porsche-en-el-nacional/

Well, again one STUPID decision.....

[dimviii]

finally comon sense.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

finally comon sense.
And good for Skoda & PSA..

[dimviii]

And good for Skoda & PSA..

for everybody who has spent 250.000 euros to compete with an r5 car and what to compete with SAME rules.

For sale Porsche 997 GT3 Rally(Ex.Vallejo/Xevi Pons) Champion of Catalonia in tarmac championship 2014 and 2015. Engine 3.6 “NEW” 420hp,

http://www.rallycarsforsale.net/ads/porsche-997-gt3-rally-new-engine/

[GravelBen]

for everybody who has spent 250.000 euros to compete with an r5 car and what to compete with SAME rules.

Surely someone who competes with an r5 car is competing against other r5 cars? Doesn't matter what a different class does.

If you want the same rules you would have to let RGT have 4wd like r5 as well ;)

[dimviii]

If you want the same rules you would have to let RGT have 4wd like r5 as well ;)

nobody denied to porsche to build a 4wd car with 1,6litres engine with restrictor.

[tommeke_B]

+1, I think it's a good thing to limit the GT cars a bit, in favor of a healthy competition. For GT cars I think it's more important to focus on keeping the costs down rather than pushing the performance. Top GT cars can battle with proper rallycars only in optimal conditions anyway, and those are rare to find in most countries... We have great competitions with R5 cars at the moment (entry lists in many different countries prove it), it would be a shame to ruin it by making GT cars quicker. It would be nicer to see them as the cheaper alternative (in terms of running cost), especially for drivers who usually cannot fight for the win with these cars anyway.

[GravelBen]

nobody denied to porsche to build a 4wd car with 1,6litres engine with restrictor.

And nobody denied others the chance to build an RGT car, and nobody denied R5 drivers who are worried an RGT might occasionally be faster the chance to drive RGT instead. Thats kindof the point in having different classes ;)

[dimviii]

lol

[Andre Oliveira]

For me is simple, actual GT do gravel events? no, not a rally car... next.

[pantealex]

For me is simple, actual GT do gravel events? no, not a rally car... next.

only in Finland ;)

[Simmi]

Was nice to see a few of these cars out on international events for a couple of years. Fun while it lasted.

[Mirek]

And nobody denied others the chance to build an RGT car, and nobody denied R5 drivers who are worried an RGT might occasionally be faster the chance to drive RGT instead. Thats kindof the point in having different classes ;)

Sir, the Spanish GT cars are very far from R-GT regulations. They are national curiosity which works in specific local conditions and as such they unfortunately helped to isolate Spanish rally scene from the international one. In my opinion it's not that good idea to differ too much from international rules because it makes it very difficult for locals to get to the international level.

Please don't confuse things. Porsche never built R-GT car. All the cars which were built are private initiatives and all of them are slower than R5 cars. No manufacturer including Porsche is interested in R-GT class simply because those cars are made not to win. It's very misleading to confuse Spanish cars with R-GT ones. Those are different kind.

[GravelBen]

Fair enough, I didn't know the Spanish cars were so different.

I think the general point is valid though, why restrict them so much instead of just letting them run in their own class? Would you restrict a historic class car to make sure it doesn't have more power than a new R5?

[Mirek]

It's not so easy question if such class can win overall. In my opinion the overall top classes shall follow FIA sporting code but of course I'm not national ASN of every country. It's just my personal opinion.

[dimviii]

Fair enough, I didn't know the Spanish cars were so different.

I think the general point is valid though, why restrict them so much instead of just letting them run in their own class? Would you restrict a historic class car to make sure it doesn't have more power than a new R5?

let me try to explain you.

We have 5-8-10 drivers that they have spent 200-300k euro to compete at Spanish-Belgium -Italian championship.
Somebody comes with a gt car with 420 bhp and 300mm width tyre and taking advantage (from the 100-120 bhp plus at same weight),at straights(at corners he is slower) and become champion.
All the other drivers while they are much better/faster,cant become champions,due to power/tyres advantage.They will win a class,not a championship.So there is no need to spent 200-300k for a win class,when somebody with less than half money can become champion from these advantages.
Rallyes always are run under rules.For decades and at ALL classes and championships.And rgt cars had big advantage from rules at power and tyres width.
Thats not rallying.
Its the same as i would like to win the champions league and participate with a team with 15 players against 11 players for all the other teams.
Maybe you havent got any problem to watch football with 15 players against 11,but thats not football.
If Vallejo or somebody else wants to win the local championship,there is only one way.To buy/rent a r5 car and compete against the other drivers.With same power.and same tyres.

[GravelBen]

I understand what you're saying, but if they can go faster and win for half the cost then why not do it? If the other drivers are better and want to win that championship they could buy a GT car too instead of an R5.

I don't see why the most expensive car has to win, unless the goal is to make drivers spend more money on those cars (which may be what the R5 manufacturers want, but is it best for the sport?).

I know that young drivers moving up the ranks need experience in the right sort of car if they want to reach WRC and they also want to win championships, but similar choices apply at other levels too - if a young talented driver spends a season in an R2 car to refine his technique while other drivers with less long-term goals jump into turbo 4wd cars sooner, the guy in the R2 wouldn't expect the faster cars to be restricted to R2 pace so that he can win the championship!

Ideally for spectator interest you would have a variety of different cars with different advantages, but equal chance of winning overall. And that may be what they're trying to achieve with the restrictions on the GT cars, but I get the impression its gone too far and now the GT cars have no chance of winning?

Another way of managing it is how NZRC used to run, where faster cars (Grp-A etc) could enter and win events but only Grp-N was eligible for championship points.

[Rally Power]

We have 5-8-10 drivers that they have spent 200-300k euro to compete at Spanish-Belgium -Italian championship.
Somebody comes with a gt car with 420 bhp and 300mm width tyre and taking advantage (from the 100-120 bhp plus at same weight),at straights(at corners he is slower) and become champion.
All the other drivers while they are much better/faster,cant become champions,due to power/tyres advantage.They will win a class,not a championship.So there is no need to spent 200-300k for a win class,when somebody with less than half money can become champion from these advantages.
Rallyes always are run under rules.For decades and at ALL classes and championships.And rgt cars had big advantage from rules at power and tyres width. Thats not rallying.(...)
If Vallejo or somebody else wants to win the local championship,there is only one way.To buy/rent a r5 car and compete against the other drivers.With same power.and same tyres.

Are you also against Nikara and the others guys in Finland using GrN+ Evos and Imprezas? They’re also capable to beat R5’s with old cars that should cost under 100.000€!

Btw, if a guy in an R5 can be pissed to see a half priced 911 or Impreza beating him, what about RRC’s drivers? They also got their half a million cars severely limited to level S2000’s and R5’s power, but they were delighted to run their downgraded WRC’s (till FIA managed to throw them out of the road with the 28mm restrictor!).

I agree with the previous post: Rally needs diversity and there’s no problem to put at the same level different kinds of cars and get drivers with smaller budgets fighting alongside top drivers and teams for regional or national championships.

It’s true that unlimited 911’s were a bit too strong for R5’s (btw, 911’s are cheap to buy and run, because most of them are old racing cars used in former Porsche GT3 Cup’s around the world) but the same way FIA managed to balanced RRC’s with R5’s during last seasons, they could also managed to get a reasonable compromise with GT’s (and even with N4/R4, like now the Fins are doing).

Somehow, the 39mm restrictor was a sign that FIA was simply allowing RGT without giving them a proper chance to be competitive, and it’s a shame to see Spain ASN following FIA path. For sure some kind of limitation was needed when the 3.8 911 was introduced, but with R5 getting each day more competitive it’s a bit stupid to restrain them now so severely.

[Mirek]

It's not a shame that that Spanish ASN starts to follow FIA way. They do what is logical. The isolation of their home series from international competition is not good for them and having no successor to Sainz or even Sordo for a decade is one of the signs. You can blame FIA for making the GT rules in such a way that they are doomed to be nothing more than a curiosity on stages but not local ASNs for synchronizing with FIA.

[pantealex]

I would like to have FIA rules also in Finland!

[MartijnS]

Timothy van Parijs and Jochem Claerhout have confirmation that they can start with their Porsches in their national configuration, so not RGT in Ypres ERC field.