Guns Guns Guns, Now Paris!

[keysersoze]

Does his message have to do anything with suede, leather, sweet sixteen and fast cars?

I don't get it.

[Starter]

I have no idea how many Muslims are members of or read this board. But I'll just throw this out for consideration. So long as the large majority of Muslims fail to take an active, vocal and public stand against the terrorist activities of the very few, the long term consequences could be grave for Islam. The large and continuing number of bombings and public assaults on civilians, where ever they may occur, will begin to be seen as a war against all other religions with tacit permission from the silent majority of Muslims. Sooner or later a tipping point in world opinion will be reached where the rest of the world will have had enough and Islam and it's adherents will begin to be seen as an outlaw religion. When that happens it would not be a good idea to practice Islam in public in most countries. If you want to have a place in the world you have to work at cleaning up your own house.

[schmenke]

I can appreciate what you’re saying Starter, but consider the fact that there are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims in the world (or ~23% of the population, according to google). It is also one of the fastest growing religions in the world, so I can’t see it being an “outlaw” religion any time soon.

[gadjo_dilo]

. The large and continuing number of bombings and public assaults on civilians, where ever they may occur, will begin to be seen as a war against all other religions with tacit permission from the silent majority of Muslims. Sooner or later a tipping point in world opinion will be reached where the rest of the world will have had enough and Islam and it's adherents will begin to be seen as an outlaw religion.

As far as I remember none of the bombing/assaults from USA, Madrid, London and now Paris had as motivation the religion of the victims.....

Generally the terrorists pretend to do the assaults in the name of their religion but in fact it's all about politics.
Their religion doesn't teach them to kill innocent people and terrorists are just misinterpreting the Quoran.

[Malbec]

I have no idea how many Muslims are members of or read this board. But I'll just throw this out for consideration. So long as the large majority of Muslims fail to take an active, vocal and public stand against the terrorist activities of the very few, the long term consequences could be grave for Islam. The large and continuing number of bombings and public assaults on civilians, where ever they may occur, will begin to be seen as a war against all other religions with tacit permission from the silent majority of Muslims. Sooner or later a tipping point in world opinion will be reached where the rest of the world will have had enough and Islam and it's adherents will begin to be seen as an outlaw religion. When that happens it would not be a good idea to practice Islam in public in most countries. If you want to have a place in the world you have to work at cleaning up your own house.

Luckily most people do not have such a simplistic outlook on life.

While the terrorists may proclaim to act for the whole religion its clear that the vast majority do not agree with their views. If they did, we'd be at war with 1.6 billion people. We clearly are not.

However your point about Muslims having to take responsibility for the actions of a minority of terrorists within their ranks is actually ironically precisely the same thinking process the terrorists have. You do realise that you are viewed as fair game by these extremists because as an American civilian you are responsible for voting for and funding governments that kill civilians (whether accidental or deliberate is not of interest to them) across the Muslim world? Your failure to oppose these actions means that according to their logic you are as legitimate a target as an American soldier. This is the exact logic they use to justify mass killings of civilians everywhere.

Of course your link to the actions of your government is stronger than the average Muslim living somewhere in the Middle East or Asia who has no control over groups like ISIS, you have a vote and pay taxes to the government they oppose.

[Malbec]

I just wonder how much (philosophically) you need to give to certain people to keep them feeling enfranchised. I raise two kids and I almost spoiled the older one (now 7) by giving him too much (toys and stuff). He got the point and started playing the drama of a disenfranchised guy each time he wanted another unnecessary thing. At some point his every other phrase would start with something like "It's a pity that..." I reckon these two just didn't have enough honest disciplining from their parents or the French government.

As Tazio has suggested the French have a long complex relationship with their Algerian and sub-Saharan African migrants. First, a bitter war of independence where the French were pretty brutal then widespread discrimination against Algerian migrants in France. Ever heard of banlieue? The dictionary will tell you its an innocent French word for suburb. The reality is that these are miserable apartment blocks on the outskirts of big cities where undesirables like Algerians, blacks and the poorest and worst of French society find themselves. Its nearly impossible for people there to climb out of poverty as those postcodes are blacklisted. Frequently CVs with those postcodes are simply binned before they're even reviewed for job applications. I would watch La Haine if you want to see what life there is like. As for the French police, their tendency to recourse to violence at the first opportunity is well known. Every time we fly there my wife, caucasian French, reminds me never to look the police in the eye and never EVER talk back regardless of the circumstances. Its easy to see how resentment and frustration boil over into anger and eventually violence. For the vast majority of those in the banlieue their outlets are the riots that hit those areas quite regularly. While I abhor terrorism I can however understand how these three, brought up and raised in the circumstances they were in chose a more organised and violent way of hitting back at the system. And of course it is never possible to prove institutional racism in a country where data collection regarding ethnic origin is simply not performed, hence institutional racism simply does not exist. The French state really is secular in every possible way for better or for worse.

Of course the Algerians are not blameless, many of them are unskilled workers who came to supply the labour force in the '60s and found themselves unemployable once the French economy slowed down and reduced its demand for unskilled labour. Culturally many of these migrants do not value education and therefore their descendants find it doubly difficult to find good employment and climb out of the ghetto.

The religious aspect of this is only a recent development as second and third generation Algerians in France try to return to their roots in a bid to find their identity in a country that simply won't accept them as equals. The proportion of Algerian descendants who wear hijabs for example is much higher currently than it was 20-30 years ago.

I'm not very optimistic about France for 2015. Once the togetherness from Je Suis Charlie dies down I think there will be some pretty nasty discourse going on. Cars will burn again and the FN will rise.

[Rollo]

You do realise that you are viewed as fair game by these extremists because as an American civilian you are responsible for voting for and funding governments that kill civilians (whether accidental or deliberate is not of interest to them) across the Muslim world? Your failure to oppose these actions means that according to their logic you are as legitimate a target as an American soldier. This is the exact logic they use to justify mass killings of civilians everywhere.

Of course your link to the actions of your government is stronger than the average Muslim living somewhere in the Middle East or Asia who has no control over groups like ISIS, you have a vote and pay taxes to the government they oppose.

This +1.

Such a view wouldn't be unjustified either:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

- The Grauniad, 7th Oct 2005

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...q-6262644.html
In the programmeElusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, which starts on Monday, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."
And "now again", Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, "I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it."
- The Independent, 7th Oct 2005

I suspect thought that Starter watches Fox News. These sorts of ideas come from Fearless Leader:
https://twitter.com/rupertmurdoch/st...34788881076225
Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held responsible.
- Rupert Murdoch, Twitter, 9th Jan 2015

Mind you, Rupert has form in this sort of thing. After the deaths of three people in the Sydney seige, he didn't express condolence for the victims but congratulated his newspaper:
https://twitter.com/rupertmurdoch/st...87566297522176
AUST gets wake-call with Sydney terror. Only Daily Telegraph caught the bloody outcome at 2.00 am. Congrats.
- Rupert Murdoch, Twitter, 15th Dec 2014

Unless we take active, vocal and public stand against the terrorist activities of the very few, people like this will continue to spout such drivel. As an Australian citizen I hereby apologise on behalf of all Australians to the world, for letting this feral escape the penal colony.

[Starter]

I suspect thought that Starter watches Fox News. These sorts of ideas come from Fearless Leader:
https://twitter.com/rupertmurdoch/st...34788881076225
Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held responsible.
- Rupert Murdoch, Twitter, 9th Jan 2015

You would suspect correctly. I do watch Fox news. I also watch CBS, NBC and MSNBC, though the latter is much further to the left than Fox is to the right. I read several newspapers too; also books and I only occasionally move my lips while reading.

[Starter]

However your point about Muslims having to take responsibility for the actions of a minority of terrorists within their ranks is actually ironically precisely the same thinking process the terrorists have. You do realise that you are viewed as fair game by these extremists because as an American civilian you are responsible for voting for and funding governments that kill civilians (whether accidental or deliberate is not of interest to them) across the Muslim world? Your failure to oppose these actions means that according to their logic you are as legitimate a target as an American soldier. This is the exact logic they use to justify mass killings of civilians everywhere.

Based on actual performance, it would seem the terrorists view everyone not of their mind set as fair game. That includes other Muslims who don't immediately switch to their side. They've killed far more fellow Muslims than Westerners.

Of course your link to the actions of your government is stronger than the average Muslim living somewhere in the Middle East or Asia who has no control over groups like ISIS, you have a vote and pay taxes to the government they oppose.

The difference is that here people get to try and persuade others to come around to their way of thinking without violence and then settle the matter with a vote. And when we lose a vote, we don't start shooting people and blowing people up.

[Starter]

Generally the terrorists pretend to do the assaults in the name of their religion but in fact it's all about politics.
Their religion doesn't teach them to kill innocent people and terrorists are just misinterpreting the Quoran.

When your religion is the "official" reason for killing people, then it's religion and not politics.