Mobile phones & tablets thread

[Daniel]

Ah, I just assumed it was more

[Jag_Warrior]

The thing about Apple is that Apple products are by and large, luxury products and their market sector is always getting invaded so they're constantly having to make a new product which no one else is perceived to match and I don't see that continuing on forever.

That is a concern. But I would put it more as, what happens to Apple's ability to put a spin on its products once Steve Jobs is either gone or unable to publicly "perform"? Jobs isn't so much a brilliant engineer (he doesn't even have an engineering degree), but he is a visionary. And he also has the ability to captivate an audience. Much like Donald Trump was in the late 80's, Jobs can make people believe that what he's about to offer is something that you really want to have... the price be damned. And yeah, that is a legitimate reason to criticize him. But if other CEO's had that ability, (Ballmer, for instance) they'd be able to launch products and find a successful path easier than they do. Michael Dell also had that charismatic ability. But then he dropped out of the game for awhile (too long) and the Dell brand sank like a rock. Do you remember about ten years ago when the slogan "Dude, I'm gettin' a Dell!!!" was on everybody's lips? It was a popular ad campaign here... I don't know about Europe. But that's what it's all about: making products that can support your brand. So I question whether Apple will be like Ferrari and Rolex: being able to maintain "the brand" for decades. As of 2010, the Apple brand was actually ranked higher than Ferrari and Rolex, so will they be able to stay near the top? Or will it be like Porsche: temporarily losing its way (assuming we don't count how Apple fell after Jobs left)? Or will it be like Dell, and just fall on hard times and not seem to know the way back? I'm not a marketing guy. But one thing I have learned is that once you allow your product to become ubiquitous or a commodity, it loses value in the eyes of consumers. That's why I could sell my 25 year old Mac Plus and still get some nice coin out of it. But I'd be hard pressed to give someone my 10 year old Windows 98 HP machine. It's like comparing a 25 year old Porsche to a 10 year old Chevy.

But anyway, I think we're living in very exciting times on the computing front. This intense competition is forcing these companies to work their butts off trying to out think and out do each other. And as an occasional purchaser of computing devices and a sorta/kinda geek, I'm loving it! If I live to see it, I think what we'll have in 5-10 years is going to make what we have now seem like the Stone Age.

People forget though that Microsoft owns a portion of Facebook

Yeah, but I think it's something like 1.5%+/-. And unless they've sold it, Microsoft also owns a portion of Apple - also a very small amount (less than $200 million, if memory serves me), but that investment came at a key time for Apple.

[Daniel]

It's difficult to say really.

By all logic Apple shouldn't be so successful right now with or without Jobs so speculating as to whether Apple will still be as successful when Jobs croaks it is very much hit and miss. Would I keep my money in Apple if I were an investor? I don't know, would I put money in after the inevitable drop in share price after he croaks? Dunno

[Jag_Warrior]

Fair questions.^^^

Without Jobs, will the Apple brand be degraded? And if so, how much? Will it become more of a commodity computer producer, like HP, Acer and Dell? Will AAPL begin trading at a 10 multiple instead of a 16? Open questions that only time can answer, I suppose. I've had a rather amazing ride with AAPL thus far, but when it's time to sell, I'll sell. I have no emotional attachment to stocks or companies when it comes to investing. Years ago, I shorted CART (MPH) as it began to swirl down, and I loved that racing series.

[Daniel]

Fair questions.^^^

Without Jobs, will the Apple brand be degraded? And if so, how much? Will it become more of a commodity computer producer, like HP, Acer and Dell? Will AAPL begin trading at a 10 multiple instead of a 16? Open questions that only time can answer, I suppose. I've had a rather amazing ride with AAPL thus far, but when it's time to sell, I'll sell. I have no emotional attachment to stocks or companies when it comes to investing. Years ago, I shorted CART (MPH) as it began to swirl down, and I loved that racing series.

It's all very hit and miss. Things are on a knife edge. If the iPhone hadn't been a runaway success despite missing things like a camera and 3g which almost all other phones at the time had, then I think Apple would be down in the dumps now.

Buying an Apple product somehow seems to empower people to be able to hold it up in the air and say "This is the best <whatver> that I could buy!" even if it's missing quite crucial features that other phones have. That is of course the reason why Apple products have been so successful.

That said I think there are a lot of owners of Apple products who aren't so easily fooled. A friend on Facebook has an iPod, an iPad and iPhone but he will not buy a Mac because he's intelligent enough to know that it's just a fancy looking PC. He's a web designer too and considering his Apple purchases, you'd think he was a prime candidate for a Mac. He posted a status update on facebook saying his homebuilt PC had died and that he'd fixed it and someone started preaching about how Mac's never crashed He's very christian so there was no swearing but for an Apple fan he did slag Mac's off

[555-04Q2]

RIM Blackberry Torch Slider manufacture cost = $183
Retail Price (MSRP) = $699.99
"Profit" = $516.99

According to this data, it looks like RIM is "ripping off" people worse than Apple. But with that said, I don't buy into the notion of "acceptable" profit levels on nonessential products.

The market determines value/fair price. If a product is (truly) "overpriced", then either it will not sell or it will not sell in sufficient enough numbers to justify its continued production. For years, Microsoft lost money on every Xbox unit that it sold. But I didn't hear any stories about consumers sending Microsoft checks to make up for that deficit. I believe the gaming division, and the associated devices, now make a profit. How much of a profit margin there is, I don't know. But again, especially when discussing nonessential products with an elastic demand, market demand quickly determines whether the product is overpriced or not. At least in the U.S., carriers get the phones at a discount from the MSRP and then sell them at a subsidized price. So if AT&T is selling the iPhone 4 for more than the Blackberry Torch (I don't know if they are or not), then it's because customer demand for the iPhone outstrips that for the Torch... because the data seems to suggest that the iPhone is cheaper to produce and also sells for less (at retail) than the Torch.

Lucky for me then that I get my phones for free I have never had to pay for a phone, I have a choice of any phone I want from my cell company every 18 months at no charge!

[Daniel]

Lucky for me then that I get my phones for free I have never had to pay for a phone, I have a choice of any phone I want from my cell company every 18 months at no charge!

You pay for it with your tarrif though.

[555-04Q2]

You pay for it with your tarrif though.

Nope. I have a 16 year history with my service provider (and the same phone number for those 16 years) so I pay a lot less than the average Joe does for calls, and I get phones for free. 16 years of loyalty to them pays off slightly.

[Mark]

Less than you would with a SIM-only contract?

[555-04Q2]

Yes. I pay about 40% of what the average person is charged.