Ban on homosexuals in the U.S. military is now lifted.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Some people get it...some don't.

First off, I cant see the Gay Pride parade in Frisco being filled with a few battalions of gay soldiers. They exist yes, but the military life isn't one that is going to send the gay village down to the recruting center so this is much ado about nothing on some levels.

That said, the few that do choose to serve their country live in a society that has pretty much gotten past the misbegotten notion that it is a crime to be gay. Fact is, no one knows what causes anyone to be gay or not. The amount of pain, suffering and mental anguish gays used to suffer while not being able to be accepted to society says to me that they cannot help their sexual preference any more than I can avoid chasing the fairer sex. You are what you are, and at some point, you know whether you are gay or not.

The US Military was one of the last bastions of putting gays in the closet. Most Armed Forces in the democratic world got past this nonsense years ago. The Military to an extent has to reflect the society it protects...and that includes gays. Discrimination based on sexual preference in this case was deemed to be an affront to common sense and the human rights in a free society.

[Hondo]

An intellignt response should not be difficult to compose if the post is factually incorrect. As far as your emotional objections go, rant on. I don't complain about personal attacks so I don't know why you'd be banned.

I posted an opinion in line with the subject of this thread. I have done it without getting whipped up to a frenzy or foaming at the mouth. To label me as a homophobe is incorrect because I have no fear or loathing of homosexuals, regardless of what you may think you know, based upon my opinion.

[Hondo]

Some people get it...some don't.

First off, I cant see the Gay Pride parade in Frisco being filled with a few battalions of gay soldiers. They exist yes, but the military life isn't one that is going to send the gay village down to the recruting center so this is much ado about nothing on some levels.

That said, the few that do choose to serve their country live in a society that has pretty much gotten past the misbegotten notion that it is a crime to be gay. Fact is, no one knows what causes anyone to be gay or not. The amount of pain, suffering and mental anguish gays used to suffer while not being able to be accepted to society says to me that they cannot help their sexual preference any more than I can avoid chasing the fairer sex. You are what you are, and at some point, you know whether you are gay or not.

The US Military was one of the last bastions of putting gays in the closet. Most Armed Forces in the democratic world got past this nonsense years ago. The Military to an extent has to reflect the society it protects...and that includes gays. Discrimination based on sexual preference in this case was deemed to be an affront to common sense and the human rights in a free society.

There you go henners, Mark in Oshawa came up with an intelligent response and opinion for you. Not bad for a trucker driver, eh! Lol, you roll Mark!

[Retro Formula 1]

OK, I'll bite.

Hondo. Why do you claim being homosexual is unnatural?

The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation (Bell, Weinberg & Hammersmith, 1981; Bullough, 1976; Ford & Beach 1951 ; Kinsey, Pomeroy, & Martin, 1948; Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953 ).

http://www.apa.org/about/governance/...ientation.aspx

Therefore as it's natural by your very definition, it conforms to the norm and all this move from the US administration has done is ensure people aren't discriminated against because they are normal. After all, us Homosexuals, Bi-sexuals and Heterosexuals need to be protected from the deviant, unnatural people out there, don't we?

However, if you are trying to say that Homosexuals should be treated differently because they are in a minority then we can discuss that as well as how we discriminate against other minorities. Rally fans in particular are not "normal" in my opinion and although there are no biological reasons they gravitate to cold, wet mountains and then try to get in the most dangerous position possible, I think there must be some psychological issues with those freaks. Deviants the lot of them in my book. Or what about Motorcyclists, Drag fans (no, not what you do with Mummy's clothes when you were growing up), Lawn Mower Racers etc. There should only be F1 and not all these other unnatural pursuits.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There you go henners, Mark in Oshawa came up with an intelligent response and opinion for you. Not bad for a trucker driver, eh! Lol, you roll Mark!

Before I was a trucker, I also wrote, was an Air Traffic Control Trainee, a draftsman and have a BA.

Hondo, sometimes a trucker will fool ya. There is a few university degrees driving up and down the road ya know..and I gave it up actually...so I am now an ex trucker.

Anyhow, back to the subject at hand, it is about time the US Military woke up to the reality that the military is made up of the people it protects...and if the rest of society has more or less got on with accepting the existence legally of the gay lifestyle, so should the US Military. The Canadian Military did years ago, and it really is a non issue. The standards of behaviour for soldiers on exercise and in war situations are the same as the US Military's..basically no fraternization on duty. Don't matter if it is hetero or homosexual relationship. The rules apply equally, and lo and behold, the world didn't cave in....

[Hondo]

OK, I'll bite.

Hondo. Why do you claim being homosexual is unnatural?



http://www.apa.org/about/governance/...ientation.aspx

Therefore as it's natural by your very definition, it conforms to the norm and all this move from the US administration has done is ensure people aren't discriminated against because they are normal. After all, us Homosexuals, Bi-sexuals and Heterosexuals need to be protected from the deviant, unnatural people out there, don't we?

However, if you are trying to say that Homosexuals should be treated differently because they are in a minority then we can discuss that as well as how we discriminate against other minorities. Rally fans in particular are not "normal" in my opinion and although there are no biological reasons they gravitate to cold, wet mountains and then try to get in the most dangerous position possible, I think there must be some psychological issues with those freaks. Deviants the lot of them in my book. Or what about Motorcyclists, Drag fans (no, not what you do with Mummy's clothes when you were growing up), Lawn Mower Racers etc. There should only be F1 and not all these other unnatural pursuits.

As stated in the original post, your "proof" is based upon the opinions of some psychologists, which is a theoretical science at best. I have little doubt I could find other psychologists that would refute that claim. Kind of like a criminal trial where the defendant presents an insanity defense and has his panel of experts claiming he's mad as a hatter while the prosecution has their own experts claiming he's completely sane. Both sets of experts have had the same training and have the same line of letters following their name, but they disagree. Ultimately it comes down to which side the jury chooses to believe and in cases like this, it may be decided on which expert they like better based upon his manner or even how he is dressed. That homophiles are assumed to be a minority has nothing to do with my opinion. For all we know, they could be the majority.

[Retro Formula 1]

As stated in the original post, your "proof" is based upon the opinions of some psychologists, which is a theoretical science at best. I have little doubt I could find other psychologists that would refute that claim. Kind of like a criminal trial where the defendant presents an insanity defense and has his panel of experts claiming he's mad as a hatter while the prosecution has their own experts claiming he's completely sane. Both sets of experts have had the same training and have the same line of letters following their name, but they disagree. Ultimately it comes down to which side the jury chooses to believe and in cases like this, it may be decided on which expert they like better based upon his manner or even how he is dressed. That homophiles are assumed to be a minority has nothing to do with my opinion. For all we know, they could be the majority.

Please read the whole article and then present your evidence. The studies I quoted form part of a wider argument which you might find interesting.

As a taster for you I will give you 2 leads to start on.

1. Why would a White Caucasian man live a life of anguish, torn between his sexual attraction to men against his Christian Beliefs if he had a choice in the matter. Men have grown up in denial all their lives, ignoring their persuasion but you suggest they can turn straight if they just try hard enough? That would seen not only illogical but bloody ignorant at the very least which is why it's easier for some to relinquish their faith instead.

2. Homosexuality is unnatural. Discuss. Oh you won't? Why is that? Is it because in some cultures, it is considered the norm and that over 1500 species have been studied exhibiting Homosexual behavior from tape worms to primates. What do you think, they're doing it on purpose?

Over to you big boy

[Tazio]

I quite agree with him, and its reassuring that you are there to prompt me into reading other posts on this thread.

To add to that is the evidence that homosexuality has been found in primates, other mammals, and birds. None of which choose to be different as a form of rebellion I'm sure. Having known people who have slipped into deep depression trying to come to terms with the fact they are gay means that opinions that being gay is a choice sits very uncomfortably with me. No scientific proof has been proven that being homosexual is genetic, but nothing has been proven to suggest its a personal choice either. Instances suggest its genetic in relation to the animal kingdom and from personal experience, so a bigger picture can be considered as far as I am concerned.

The question can be asked of straight people too. Why am I attracted to my wife? Sure the answer could be the fact its a natural instinct for human beings to fancy the opposite sex in order to reproduce and that its built into our DNA, but that sort of contradicts the "being gay is a choice" stance IMO. If there is a complex structure in our DNA to enable human beings to mate, this opens up the possibility that this can also be flawed in some cases.

This is what scientists refer to as a mutation. It is a very simple component of evolution. Accept nature's laws or get a swastika and start blowing away every Pole Smoker, Butt Pirate, and Pillow Biter you can.

[Hondo]

See there henners? I knew you could do it!

I believe the US military should stick with don't ask, don't tell. I don't have a clue as to how many homosexuals are in the military now and I don't know how many more are poised to make a rush for the recruiter's door once the law goes into effect. I do know Americans do many things differently and comparing American armed forces to other armed forces shouldn't be done, regardless of the similarities. Americans also have a tendency to to overboard too fast, especially when something is new.

While a country's military may be a reflection of the makeup of it's population, it's mission is to carry out the political will of the state. For that reason, enlistment entails the forfeiture of a good many civilian rights and places the serviceman in this country under his new constitution and bill of rights known as the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Amongst other freedoms the enlisted personnel give up is the right to marry without their commanding officer's permission. I can see a huge can of worms being opened here that the military isn't equipped to deal with and quite frankly, shouldn't have to expend resources on. That it has not been a problem to date has much to do with it not being allowed. Once the door is opened, our penchant for flaunting ourselves and demanding always more will have our military in the impossible position of catering to everybody to please every whim. If this country still used conscription I could understand an easing of the policy but in an all volunteer force the military should have the final say on who they will accept. They are the ones that have to carry out the mission.

[Tazio]

Reproduction can progress in many forms. Some women give birth to twins, triplets, babies with birth defects, or down's syndrome, some women have several babies of the same gender. Women have also been known to give birth to children with ginger hair even though no present family members have hair that colour, and some children are born gay.

Scientists have been researching genetics for hundreds of years and we are still at a reletively early stage of understanding. In some cases people will shove aside scientific research in favour of centuries old religious transcripts, and the notion all gay people enjoy shoving their sexuality in people faces purely for the kick of being different. I think there is abit more depth to something this complex rather than putting it in the same category as a rebellious teen who has chosen to dye their hair green in order to make a conscious statement.

ailor: Me too