GRE = Globally Renowned Errata?

[Enjun Pullr]

The notion was credited to Audi's Ulrich Baretzky, and if memory serves the GRE was widely heralded in a RaceCar Engineering issue from July. Of 2008.

Now the first "Global Racing Engines" have seen the light of day. This discussion began in another thread, but is best continued separately.

BMW, Citroen, and Ford introduced their 1.6 L turbocharged racing engines about two weeks ago at the Paris Auto Show. They will compete in WRC (World Rally Cars) next season. They are 300 HP engines.

Delta Wing Lovers rejoice, you now have a tangible alternative. Previously the plan was for installation of a detuned AER MZR-R engine, quoted by Bill Lafontaine of Delta at $150,000 a copy. Of course, the price on the GRE's hasn't been disclosed yet....

Feel free to start another Delta thread if you wish to share these exciting developments. For the real IndyCar world, a little more truth dripped out of Baretzky's GRE today.

We already know that the performance targets for the 2012 IndyCar require 750 peak horsepower: that's full tilt bizzo, on a road course with the planned overtake assist engaged.

There are at least two existing alloy 2.0 L production engine blocks that can handle this stage of tuning, and they have already been proofed in competition in other categories. At WOT (wide open throttle) for 1,000 miles? Not yet, but the engines and the correct architecture exist.

The 1.6 GRE? If they can handle much more than the 300 HP tune, nobody has shown the proof. These are alloy engine blocks designed for light weight commuter cars. I say blammo, the whole GRE concept blows up unless you design and build a bespoke engine block to handle the job. The GRE proposed for Formula 1 in 2013 may look like one of the 300 HP rally car engines, but they will require a complete redesign from the block up.

Until today, we read a lot of enthusiasm for this plan. I'm sure that in another two and a half years, Baretzky will be proud to watch the GRE's race in F1. They have the time and cubic Euro's to make it happen. How many?

Here is what Cosworth had to say, in the course of negotiations about the GRE for F1. And why they are among the stakeholders who are pushing to keep the current V8 formula:

"Cosworth has a particular interest that everything remains the same. The engine builders from Northampton are financially limited. Cosworth believe though, that one can develop with 20 million € a four-cylinder inline engine, as long as there are strict limits on speed and boost pressure, but even this sum to be allocated to their customers. This is no longer with a lease rate of six million euros per year. For financially weak teams would be not good news."

Blame Google for the translation, the link will appear below. Cosworth's estimate is far below the figures tossed out in the article by other builders. That's $28.2 MILLION dollars for the development. Add on costs of mass production, facilities for rebuilds, distribution and tech support, a hefty participation fee to Indycar, and voila: we have our own GRE. In 2013. Maybe they can trim the lease price down from $8.46 MILLION a year?

Wow, this is surprising. Baretzky told Randy Bernard that there were three GRE's ready to go. In some jumpin' little 300 HP pace cars, maybe. Those, we could see next year. If IndyCar can afford them....

Honda has projected a lease price for the 2.4L V6 twin turbo at about $650,000 per year in 2012. If and when a competitor appears, the price goes up according to HPD's Erik Berkman.

There still remains no plan to continue using the V8's beyond 2011, which in my view is a wasted opportunity to introduce variables. At least there would be the prospect of racing two engines with different performance curves, under an equivalency cap. Not gonna happen. Not with a GRE, either.

It remains to be seen if an auto manufacturer will finance an engine program for IndyCar, even if it is based on an existing 2.0 L 4 cylinder turbo race engine. That route eliminates most development costs which have already been devoted by privateers building GM, Ford and Mazda engines.

And now we can guesstimate the cost of a clean sheet of paper design:call it $20M, and I would add at least another $15M to cover the additional expenses mentioned. Argue any of this if you wish, but please bring facts to the table.

It's tiring to read fantasies. There are plenty of other places to find those.

Reality check:

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...o-2786432.html

[Hoop-98]

The GRE is too big and heavy for the delta concept or practically for the 2012 ICS. Look up the min specs.


rh

[Enjun Pullr]

Greetings Hoop, nice to hear from you again. It's been an interesting season, hasn't it?

Thanks for that bit, I didn't have enough interest in the GRE to look it up. I presume the three 1.6 engines are roughly the same weight?

Still, it's surpising to learn that they weigh much more than the AER. I think the stripped weight of that engine is in the 175 lb. range, after the block was revised for the 2010 season.

Nice to see that AER got the reliability issues sorted.

[Hoop-98]

240 is the GRE min, 87mm bore.

rh

[Otto-Matic]

thanks for posting the link Enjun. Def some food for thought.
so just to clarify (the Google translation is a bit murky to follow on the link),
the new F1 engine forumla will cost manufactors $100 Million??? how is that sustanable? and if those costs get passed along to the teams, wouldn't this be just a huge increase in cost of participation? granted i'm not sure how much $$ the crrent engine formula costs teams (manufact costs passed down included).
Interesting points on the GRE. so all things considered, we're stuck with only Honda in 2012....

[Enjun Pullr]

Otto, where the article got confusing to me (aside from the language barrier) is the inclusion of KERS in the discussion. It seemed to me that the manufacturer figures were outlining the cost to meet the regs, i.e. complete new engine program + KERS.

I'm only guessing, but the Cosworth quote and figures indicated to me that they were talking purely about the engine, and did not mention recovery systems.

Hoop, 240 lbs is fat and happy. Which manufacturer did that come from?

[Hoop-98]

Otto, where the article got confusing to me (aside from the language barrier) is the inclusion of KERS in the discussion. It seemed to me that the manufacturer figures were outlining the cost to meet the regs, i.e. complete new engine program + KERS.

I'm only guessing, but the Cosworth quote and figures indicated to me that they were talking purely about the engine, and did not mention recovery systems.

Hoop, 240 lbs is fat and happy. Which manufacturer did that come from?

“We looked at the block, and decided it was 84 mm bore for example + or - 3 mm, so you could start with an 82 mm bore or you could go up to 87 mm bore. This already shows that you have freedom to make your own type of engine. But this was the main point that we all brought our common sense and knowledge together to this or that, the right dimensions was the discussion. This was a fantastic process; everybody contributed his ideas to make the best out of it, and we believe new manufacturers will find this concept something they will enjoy.”

The group decided to stick with petrol-based engines for now. Audi’s heavy investment in diesel racing engines notwithstanding, Baretzky says the manufacturers agreed that diesel racing engines are not ready for a global format, so the GRE has been designed to accept everything from gasoline to bio fuels.

Durability was another design aspect the group worked towards, with 6000 km (3700 miles) between rebuilds as the target. Compared to the 1200-1400 miles IndyCar teams have between rebuilds today, the GRE can go almost three times longer, which cuts out a number of expensive rebuilds.

Because of the compact size of the 2.0L inline-4, the GRE comes in at 40 pounds under the Honda V-8 (240 pounds for the GRE to 280 for the Honda) ( 70 pounds heavier than the MZR rh)with its turbo system and ancillaries attached. The Honda, at 3.4L, is light to begin with, and Baretzky says the GRE can be made lighter, but reducing weight is expensive and so far, the manufacturers involved have been satisfied with the 240 pound figure.

280 was the min weight for the IRL spec. I would look for the new engine min to be <220 lbs.

The 87mm bore limit at 1600 cc = 67 mm stroke.
The 87mm bore limit at 2000 cc = 84 mm stroke.

For comparison the current f1s are about ~40mm, these will not be high RPM engines as we know them (F1) today. Also there are limits on materials, internal component minimum weights, weight placement etc...For example a 67mm stroke engine at 10,600 has the same piston speed as a F1 today does at 18000 (23.8 M/s)

Of course in F1 they will not be observing actual GRE specs i am sure.

Well my opinion is sure!!

RH

[Enjun Pullr]

Well, there's a few things to take on faith...

The GRE weight of 240 lbs. is a Pruett quote of a Baretzky phone discussion on a consensus estimate from 2008 or 2009. It's not the weight of an actual engine.

I haven't found where a manufacturer is building a 2.0 L GRE yet. So even with a sufficient block and head, a considerable amount of additional manufacturing and development would be required to bump the displacement up from the current 1.6 L configurations. For starters, crank and rods as you pointed out. More money.

I'm still pretty sure that the AER weight is for a stripped long block, no ancillaries.

There isn't a projected weight for the Honda V6 yet that I have seen. A reasonable guess is a 20% reduction for the long block, but the weight of added ancillaries will bring it closer to the weight of the NA V8. Two turbos, wastegate, plumbing.

The hard numbers don't matter about the Delta, it's about comparing the actual weight of what is going in the new Dallara.

[Hoop-98]

Well, there's a few things to take on faith...

The GRE weight of 240 lbs. is a Pruett quote of a Baretzky phone discussion on a consensus estimate from 2008 or 2009. It's not the weight of an actual engine.

I haven't found where a manufacturer is building a 2.0 L GRE yet. So even with a sufficient block and head, a considerable amount of additional manufacturing and development would be required to bump the displacement up from the current 1.6 L configurations. For starters, crank and rods as you pointed out. More money.

I'm still pretty sure that the AER weight is for a stripped long block, no ancillaries.

There isn't a projected weight for the Honda V6 yet that I have seen. A reasonable guess is a 20% reduction for the long block, but the weight of added ancillaries will bring it closer to the weight of the NA V8. Two turbos, wastegate, plumbing.

The hard numbers don't matter about the Delta, it's about comparing the actual weight of what is going in the new Dallara.

Well 240 would be an agreed upon spec, I have seen it in several notes. 164 with Turbo is what I hear for the MZR, but there are no official weight standards, so it is all pretty much on faith.

The Honda V8 would weigh about 220 if that was legal (like the 2.65 does), the 3.0 V-10 F1's were under 220 (100 Kg).

The Ford production Eco-Boost 1.6 Liter is 79mm x 81.4 so no idea where the WRC engine would be, but likely longish stroke, tall deck for rod length purposes..

The entire reason for a high minimum weight limit for the GRE is so that production based engines can be used instead of 165 pound bespoke racing engines like the MZR, which has little more than number of cylinders in common with the production based namesake.

For many reasons production based engines have tall decks, and are longer than a race engine would be as well as heavier.

So my "guesses', while informed from research, are leaps of faith. I think your reasonable guess is unreasonable, IMO, no reason for the long block to exceed 200 pounds except for a rule requiring such, you don't take off the amount of weight they are talking about for the new chassis with a 280 pound engine, it will be lighter. The much bigger AER P32t 3.6L V8 weighs 259 complete with twin turbos, I'll stick with my 220 "reasonable" guess.


rh

[Enjun Pullr]

Thank you Hoop, I had never read that there was a rules specification for minimum engine weight. That's also quite informative to imagine the AER V8 is such a lightweight, even with the turbos.