Team orders at Ferrari

[Caroline]

And I have said this before - simply because a rule or regulation exists, it does not mean it is just and that it ought to be adhered to.

Rules are rules, surely? There is no room for interpretation.

Team members should not portray a disunited front at any time publicly, but even this could be neutralized if the core problem was elminated - revoke the rule of no team orders.

Is this a rule? An unwritten rule? Perhaps Rob Smedley and Felipe Massa felt that it wasn't right and that it ought not be adhered to?

Another bad association for Alonso, what a shame. He may be a former WDC but surely the public now see him in a very different light after his various brushes with controversy.

[Dave B]

Even if Alonso was 10 seconds behind Massa - it is Ferrari's right and the proper traditon of motor racing always, that the number 2 driver [Massa] move aside for the number 1 driver [Alonso] at a team's instruction.

No no no. Yet again you're muddying the waters by confusing what should be in the rules with what's actually in the rules.

Maybe it is a daft rule, that's certainly a debate which should be heard. But, as it stood on Sunday afternoon, that WAS the rule and Ferrari breached it. They don't have a "right" to pick and choose which rules they wish to obey, whatever you may think.

[wedge]

Simple. Lewis was being held up by a team mate who would only go on to finish 5th. Heikki knew that if he let Lewis go, the Englishman had a chance to hunt down the guys in front and gain more points for both himself and the team. Hamilton went on to win the race, while Heikki's P5 was evidence that he didn't have the pace of his team mate.

After the race there was no protest, and no investigation. Other teams, and the stewards, did not believe there was a case to answer. There was no evidence ever put forward that it was anything other than Heikki's decision.

When Massa let Alonso past they were 1st and 2nd. They literally could not improve on this, so any suggestion that it was for the good of the team is a smokescreen by Luca di Montezemolo. If they'd even been 2nd and 3rd, and Alonso could have been freed up to fight for the win, I'd have no problem with their move.

2006 US Grand Prix (held in July) - Massa leads the first stint but then gives up the lead after the first round of pit stops. Everyone knew this would happen. Massa happily obliged because the switch over was unbrazen.

Where was the outcry?

[Dave B]

2006 US Grand Prix (held in July) - Massa leads the first stint but then gives up the lead after the first round of pit stops. Everyone knew this would happen. Massa happily obliged because the switch over was unbrazen.

Where was the outcry?

You'll have to forgive me but I don't have a clear recollection of the race. If I get a spare couple of hours I'll dig out the DVD.

[ArrowsFA1]

Where was the outcry?

People didn't feel conned

IIRC Massa had some kind of mechanical issue which slowed him. Genuine or not? Who knows!

[pino]

Pino

I have no doubt that Heikki made a bit of room for Lewis on that day. Now, it might have been that the team had a word with him before the race and said "don't hold Lewis up" or it might be that decided to let his team mate past as he knew it would disadvantage them both if he tried to hold onto it.

The fact is that nobody came on the radio moaning about a rediculous situation and the team didn't clearly give as close to a direct order as is possible.

Team orders are something that will subtly happen in the background. What we saw on Sunday was the sport being brought into disrepute again and the worlds media exposing it as a sham.

As I have said previously, it is not just breaking the rules of the sport but I think is a criminal act as well.

Both you and Dave have to try harder to convince me : I still think that what Ferrari did was exactly what other team have done for years (Ferrari included), so I really don't understand all this complaining and all these threads against Ferrari...but that's probably because I am a tifoso

[markabilly]

People didn't feel conned

!

I think it was because it was not so blatant and in your face, but here we have a driver who does not have the negative fan base of Freddie, CLEARLY being told to move over on the one year anniversary of his spring incident.

It really goes back to, if the violation is not so clear and your face, it is okay.

Given Luca's outburst, it is now even more blatant and in your face.

Luca is saying Luca-Ferrari will only obey a rule that Luca-ferrari finds acceptable and in the best interests of the team as they deem those interests to be.

Otherwise, screw you. So if Ferrari finds a way to open up an engine and fix /replace parts, in such a manner as to replace/repair the seals so that no one can at the FIA can detect the repairs or breaking of the seals, then if Luca deems it in the best interests of the team, then they will do it.

After all, it has always been the tradition of the Ferrari team for many many years, that when an engine needs fixing, they fix it.....

Not even Ron Dennis would have been this much in the face as Luca has been.

So the FIA needs to slap down Luca hard for violating a rule without any remorse or apology, with the same kind of righteous vengence dumped upon Mac (who was saying sorry at the time of punishment), and put Freddie back behind Massa--which the stewards lacked the gonads to do.

Otherwise, Luca, like any dictator bully, will go wild, running over any anything he wishes.

The only question is whether little Todt will be able able to go face to face with Luca.....somehow, I think this is part of why Luca is so in the face right now, becuase they actually had some fear of maX and his whip, fear that they have none of from their former employee

So what will the FIA do about this????

Strike down the rule to appease Luca????
but the rule was there so fans --and even arguably racers themselves---would not feel cheated by seeing a manipulated result, and would know that the one who won, deserved it by being in front based on merit and not some manipulation.....

Alternatives?? How about a ban on all radio communcications? after all, how did Clark, Moss, Stewart, Brabham et al, win so many many races without someone always whispering in their ear, push push, harder, try to concentrate, remember we are only two seconds ahead, come on, you can do it.....

[Retro Formula 1]

Both you and Dave have to try harder to convince me : I still think that what Ferrari did was exactly what other team have done for years (Ferrari included), so I really don't understand all this complaining and all these threads against Ferrari...but that's probably because I am a tifoso

You know I respect your opinion and that I'm not one of these Ferrari "haters". I am a motorsport fan, pure and simple, and enjoy a friendly rivalry with supporters of other teams.

I don't want to see Ferrari thrown out and agree that other teams have used team orders. However, the whole reason the team orders business was brought in well known and Ferrari did exactly the same last weekend. It looks wrong and unfair. It's damaging for the sport and turns fans off.

The rule may be wrong but it IS a rule that must be seen to be adhered to. Other teams use team orders in a subtle way but only Ferrari decide to splash it over the front pages.

To be a Tifosi, you must also be a motorsport fan otherwise what are you supporting? What we saw on Sunday damages the sport.

[johunn]

As it damages the sport then please everyone that are not going to watch the next F1 race due to what happened last weekend please raise your hands... I suspect there are not many. And the argument that it is all right to do it at the end of the season. Well if you are against the rule then why make exceptions at the end of the season. By that time it's probably already too late. The best example is the proud joint second position of Lewis and Fernando when Kimi beat them by one point... now isn't that a stupid situation to be in as a team principal? Explain to the potential sponsors that our guys want to race that's why they haven't managed to win the championship. And the current issue arose only because Massa had a new contract and thought that there is no need to play the role that he was given prior to the race. Fernando was faster than Felipe the whole weekend and there is no point to argue about this. Whether he was fast enough to overtake is another question. I would personally rather bend the rules than look outright stupid (Red Bull drivers crashing into each other).

[wedge]

People didn't feel conned

IIRC Massa had some kind of mechanical issue which slowed him. Genuine or not? Who knows!

Because Massa was quite happy to do it that time round.

We've seen that if you're unhappy with the decision the driver realises its 'a team gain but take some pain' eg. Rubens in Austria 2002 and DC in Melbourne 1998 as Brundle alluded to the PR BS on the BBC F1 Forum.