The great debate of healthcare, private or public?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ok...I am sure I am just supplanting a thread we had on this topic as the US was in their healthcare woes, but I didn't bother digging into the archives for this addition.
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/oth...50836-sun.html


The UFC heavyweight Brock Lesnar was recently treated, or rather NOT treated for his diverticulitis condition while up in Manitoba on a hunting trip. Brandon, the city where he went for treatment is a decent sized city by Canadian standards, and the second biggest city in the province. It SHOULD have the facilities to handle a case like this, yet the scanner required for this man was not working. NOT working? IN a similar sized US city, there would be 3 or 4 scanners that would likely be in use. THAT is where the public system has let people down.

That said, in reading the article and hearing him tell his woes on the Jimmy Fallon show, he bad mouthed Canada a bit and I know the man isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but lets face the reality that people when sick do NOT want excuses, they want results, and he drove south to Bismarck North Dakota to get them.

Here was a guy who is accumsted to having his health issues taken care of, and couldn't get the service he wanted for what is a pretty common condition. I suggest that those who keep saying the American system is too expensive and faulty are ignoring the one large problem with public healthcare: It is often behind the private sector in utilizing and obtaining the latest equipment, and government mentality almost ensures that there is a lot of bureaucracy getting in the way of letting the doctors have the tools they need.

[Malbec]

The UFC heavyweight Brock Lesnar was recently treated, or rather NOT treated for his diverticulitis condition while up in Manitoba on a hunting trip.

Diverticulitis is not a radiological diagnosis but a clinical one, ie he didn't need a scan. A CT scan is nice but only an idiot would withhold treatment for lack of one, and a normal CT doesn't exclude diverticulitis either.

Sorry but my bullometer has just gone off the scale already, looks like a case of a celebrity patient not understanding their condition and a politically loaded media willing to jump on anything regardless of the facts.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

This question will always come down to whether you think health care is a given right or not. I think it is a right and the poorest should be given the same healthcare as the richest. If the richer want extra then they should be able to pay extra for it.

So in short public with the option of private.

I would expect that you would see a bigger protest in the UK if they tried to take our NHS away than the pro-private healthcare Americans are doing.

[Sonic]

My thoughts are very similar to Jon's. Healthcare should be available to all as a basic human right and if you've got some extra cash then go ahead and pay for private if you wish.

[Rollo]

This question will always come down to whether you think health care is a given right or not. I think it is a right

SO does the UN:
United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Article 25.1
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The United States doesn't believe in listening to the UN though. That's why they've never adopted it, despite voting in favour for it in 1948. Then again the USA frequently ignores the UN.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

SO does the UN:
United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Article 25.1
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The United States doesn't believe in listening to the UN though. That's why they've never adopted it, despite voting in favour for it in 1948. Then again the USA frequently ignores the UN.

But what does Medicare offer?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Diverticulitis is not a radiological diagnosis but a clinical one, ie he didn't need a scan. A CT scan is nice but only an idiot would withhold treatment for lack of one, and a normal CT doesn't exclude diverticulitis either.

Sorry but my bullometer has just gone off the scale already, looks like a case of a celebrity patient not understanding their condition and a politically loaded media willing to jump on anything regardless of the facts.

That was something that twigged me, but I toss it out there, and may I point that the fact the scanner wasn't available is the point. In a city that size, only one CT scanner? THAT is a reality in Canadian healthcare....

[Mark in Oshawa]

But what does Medicare offer?

Jon...you would have to grill one of the Americans, but I have been told more than once it is minimum care at any hospital.

I am torn in this debate. I am comfortable with the reality of the medical system we have here yet the principles upon much of what I believe says that a private system should be available and I wont knock the Americans who don't want a public system....

[janvanvurpa]

Diverticulitis is not a radiological diagnosis but a clinical one, ie he didn't need a scan. A CT scan is nice but only an idiot would withhold treatment for lack of one, and a normal CT doesn't exclude diverticulitis either.

Sorry but my bullometer has just gone off the scale already, looks like a case of a celebrity patient not understanding their condition and a politically loaded media willing to jump on anything regardless of the facts.

Poor thing can't pinch a loaf, eh?

Yep that's incontrovertible proof Canadians Stalinsit Dachau like so called health care system is kaput!

And that Americans everywhere would not be sitting pretty if the Maoist Regime in Washington headed by Hussien O destroys the entire country by forcing thru Health care form at the point of a gun!!!
Americans in American have a right to a CT scan whenever they can't poop!


Maybe if said celebrity patient would have eaten more "roughage", he wouldn't be , so to speak, full-of-shît..

Of course the media in question is also so full that they spew up loads and many people happily eat what is served...

Glad I don't need a CT scan when I need to lay a trans-Atlantic cable.....

[Hondo]

Here's the real down and dirty. This is the real issue and you won't see it in the newspapers. First, some preconditions. Jon you are correct. The majority of Americans were raised within the culture of America being a land of opportunity not entitlements. Amongst that, you do not have a right to healthcare but you do have the right to attempt to get all the healthcare you want by purchasing it, begging for it, bartering for it, conning them out of it, and you name it. In the case of an immediate, life threatening condition you can go or be taken into any hospital emergency room and be treated. In areas where there are charity hospitals, they may stabilize you at one and then transport you to the charity hospital. Either way, when you leave, you'll be presented with a bill before you go. Arrangements will try to be made for you to pay the bill over a long period of time but each and every month, you'll get that bill. The options hospitals have in trying to enforce collection of an indigent bill will vary from area to area. The key word here is indigent. If instead you have a good job and make decent money you can bet that hospital is going to expect you to pay. If you are flat on your back broke and are the scum of the earth, you will receive treatment for immediate life threatening conditions, including broken bones! Is that clear now? Are you going to receive long term out patient care? Nope. Boob job? Nope long term cancer treatment? Sorry. New kidney? Don't hold your breath. If you are poor or broke, you get the very basic stuff. That's all.

Rollo, I can appreciate you rolling out the underachiever's classic, good old Article 25.1. The UN is another one of those institutions people and nations embrace or dismiss depending on how views their current cause. No nations are ruled by the UN. They are ruled and governed by their constitutions. Article 25.1 specifies many things as rights that are not recognized as rights by the US Constitution. Therefore, in the USA, 25.1 loses. Article 25.1 is warm, fuzzy, feels good, utopian, completely unsustainable in the real world, and ridiculous. Who can afford to pay for 25.1? Since I know your answer already, what happens when you finally whittle the "rich" down to nothing? Just for fun. let's assume the the UN has oodles of money and can pay. Pretty soon there won't be anything left to buy. 25.1 offers a Garden of Eden lifestyle so why would any farmer, powerplant operator, factory worker, miner, or fisherman want to go bust his butt for 8 to 16 hours a day to earn a living when he can stay home, enjoy life, and have everything he needs? To have more? You have already decided he is not worthy of more. He was your final definition of "rich". Rich meant he was one of the few still working and producing valuable goods and services. You finally taxed him down to where he realized that people with no jobs were better off than he was. So he quit working too. Who is going to produce the food, goods, and services to sustain the lives of the professional poor basking in the glow of 25.1? You gonna do it Rollo?

Onwards. Just to make things easy, we'll accept the figure of 30 million Americans without health insurance. You can split that into 2 other groups, those that cannot afford insurance and those that refuse to afford insurance.

Before getting too deeply into this some personal opinions are:

The fact that this whole discussion is about medical insurance would lead one to believe that any medical treatment is too expensive to obtain without medical insurance. Thats not true , but even so, the medical profession should have it's feet held to the fire (or waterboard) to justify some of their fees and charges along with the insurance companies. Every place I've lived in this country has had clinics of every medical art that offered long term, low payment plans for those that desired care but did not have insurance. One year, I opted out of my group insurance because when you're young, strong, and bullet proof, you do stuff like that now and then. 9 months into the year I ended up limping into a hospital ER with a huge red boil the size of a golf ball on my thigh that had failed to respond favorably to my ignore it method of treatment. It was a slow day so 2 young doctors spent about an hour gleefully slicing, squeezing, and digging all manner of exotic looking white and green crap out of it before packing it with gauze and sewing it up. Staph infection. Bill $800.00 with follow up to remove gauze and stiches included at no extra charge. I paid the bill and left. When I went back for the follow up one of the same doctors worked on me again. He thanked me for paying the bill and told me they figured I was just another person probably giving them a fake name and address and they'd never see me again. That was my only medical adventure that year and even paying out of pocket, I still came out $600.00 ahead of what I would have spent on insurance that year. The point is that there is care available and there are those that will do their utmost, short of giving it away, to help a family afford it.
Is there a need for insurance reform? Yes, I think so but it needs to be done with understanding on both sides of the table. Hospitals and insurance companies are businesses and are in business to make a profit and that needs to be understood and not seen as evil. So what's the problem? There are two major problems. One is that everything our government touches becomes an out of control money consuming pit that never delivers what was promised. Doesn't matter if it's a Democratic program or a Republican program. If any of these clowns could survive in a real business, they wouldn't have to be politicians. Their previous attempts, Medicare and Medicaid are both broke. For what ever reason, they are absolutely terrified of us seeing or having any input into what their new program is and what it will do, what it won't do, what sort of restrictions it will have, how much it will cover, how long it will cover, and most of all WHO IT COVERS.

Thats right, who it covers. Americans are very generous people. If there is a disaster, we are there. If you hate us, spit on us and kill us from time to time we are still going to come and feed you, water you, aid you, and help you rebuild until you're feeling better and are able to spit on us again. Thats the kind of stupid bast@rds we are. Unless, You're an American. Go back and see opportunity and culture.

End of part one. I need a break. last part coming shortly.
Back to insurance and insurance reform.