Obama shows sense of realism

**BDunnell** · 21st September 2009, 00:41

Originally Posted by airshifter

I know you would much rather ignore the fact that Saddam was a mass murdering tyrant who deserved to die, but the people from Iraq obviously didn't agree.

So much for the US and its allies putting an end to the sort of primitive brutality that besets the cause of human rights in numerous countries in that region...

**Mark in Oshawa** · 21st September 2009, 06:27

Originally Posted by Dylan H

There were no UN resolutions sanctioning the invasion of Iraq. You're getting confused I presume with the invasion of Afghanistan.

Me thinks you ignore the first 12 resolutions ending the first Gulf War after the invasion of Kuwait. I believe the alternative to Saddam NOT following UN dictates on those 12 resolutions ending that conflict was a resumation of the war. THAT my friend is the legal pretext that Bush was pointing to. Either UN resolutions are enforced, or are meaningless platitudes. It seems some of you guys are quite willing to watch the UN make these resolutions but if there is no enforcment or consequences to breaking them, then really, is there a point to the UN at all?

**Mark in Oshawa** · 21st September 2009, 06:30

Originally Posted by Eki

Finland have lived in peace with Russia for over 60 years, I don't see any signs why that would suddenly change. Russia doesn't see Finland as a security threat anymore.

You guys were not a security threat to Russia in 1939 but that didn't stop Stalin did it? Is Georgia a security threat? It was invaded a year or so ago.

As for Dex's feeling you understand the Russians better than those of us in the US and Canada, maybe on some level you do. The point is, from a far, the Russians had about a 10 year window where they took on true democratic ideals and tried them on for size. Then Putin came along...and people who question him end up dead. People who assumed the mantle of a free and open press. Any time you show me a leader who will manipulate and oppress free speech, I show you a tyrant in the making, and those people, I would be REAL careful about trusting...

**Mark in Oshawa** · 21st September 2009, 06:39

Originally Posted by BDunnell

So much for the US and its allies putting an end to the sort of primitive brutality that besets the cause of human rights in numerous countries in that region...

Funny...I heard nothing but people criticizing the Americans for imposing their value system on other nations. So if they TRIED to stop the Iraqi's from putting Saddam to death, that is ok, but if if they sanction capital punishment for one of the most heinous men in the last 30 years, that's wrong? Funny....I don't normally agree with capital punishment, but only an idiot would assume Saddam wasn't guilty of mass killings on a nation wide level and widespread human rights abuses. I make an exception for him....

**Eki** · 21st September 2009, 07:06

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

You guys were not a security threat to Russia in 1939 but that didn't stop Stalin did it?

That's not what the Soviets believed in 1939. It's not any more laughable than the US believing North Korea and Iran are threats to herself:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/docs/Man...040642_dt.html

Hitler: (Interrupting) We had huge German production: however, the demands of the air force, our Panzer divisions - they are really huge. It is level of consumption that surpasses the imagination. And without the addition of four to five million tons of Romanian petroleum, we could not have fought the war - and would have had to let it be - and that was my big worry. Therefore I aspired to, bridge the period of negotiations 'till we would be strong enough to, counter those extortive demands [from Moscow] because - those demands were simply naked extortion's. They were extortion's. The Russians knew we were tied up in the west. They could really extort everything from us. Only when Molotov visited - then - I told him frankly that the demands, their numerous demands, weren't acceptable to us. With that the negotiations came to an abrupt end that same morning.

There were four topics. The one topic that, involved Finland was, the, freedom to protect themselves from the Finnish threat, he said. [I said] You do not want to tell me Finland threatens you! But he said: "In Finland it is - they who take action against the, friends, of the Soviet Union. They would [take action] against [our] society, against us - they would continuously, persecute us and, a great power cannot be threatened by a minor country."

I said: "Your, existence isn't threatened by Finland! That is, you don't mean to tell me..."

Mannerheim: (Interrupting) Laughable!

Hitler: "...that your existence is threatened by Finland?" Well [he said] there was a moral - threat being made against a great power, and what Finland was doing, that was a moral - a threat to their moral existence.

The fear wasn't totally baseless. The Communist Party in Finland was forbidden, active communists were imprisoned, and the will to eradicate communism was strong among many. Finnish volunteers had also been fighting and stirring up war of independence in the Soviet Karelia in 1918 to 1922.

Is Georgia a security threat? It was invaded a year or so ago.

Georgia had at least 50% of the blame for that. They were a security threat to the ethnic Russians in Ossetia.

**BDunnell** · 21st September 2009, 07:32

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Funny...I heard nothing but people criticizing the Americans for imposing their value system on other nations.

I agree with that criticism. I was merely pointing out the fact that the US has obviously failed in so doing, despite its efforts.

**BDunnell** · 21st September 2009, 07:34

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

As for Dex's feeling you understand the Russians better than those of us in the US and Canada, maybe on some level you do. The point is, from a far, the Russians had about a 10 year window where they took on true democratic ideals and tried them on for size. Then Putin came along...and people who question him end up dead. People who assumed the mantle of a free and open press. Any time you show me a leader who will manipulate and oppress free speech, I show you a tyrant in the making, and those people, I would be REAL careful about trusting...

I don't think Russian democracy — nor indeed Russian capitalism, come to that — ever took a form that we would recognise in the West, even before Putin.

**steve_spackman** · 21st September 2009, 07:38

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Funny...I heard nothing but people criticizing the Americans for imposing their value system on other nations. So if they TRIED to stop the Iraqi's from putting Saddam to death, that is ok, but if if they sanction capital punishment for one of the most heinous men in the last 30 years, that's wrong? Funny....I don't normally agree with capital punishment, but only an idiot would assume Saddam wasn't guilty of mass killings on a nation wide level and widespread human rights abuses. I make an exception for him....

Yes he was guilty of killing on a nation wide level, but still didnt give the US or us Brits the right to invade the country...

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Funny...I heard nothing but people criticizing the Americans for imposing their value system on other nations.

Havent done a great job of imposing their value system have they? I dont see what right they have on trying to impose their value system on others???

**Mark in Oshawa** · 21st September 2009, 08:22

Originally Posted by Eki

That's not what the Soviets believed in 1939. It's not any more laughable than the US believing North Korea and Iran are threats to herself:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/docs/Man...040642_dt.html

The fear wasn't totally baseless. The Communist Party in Finland was forbidden, active communists were imprisoned, and the will to eradicate communism was strong among many. Finnish volunteers had also been fighting and stirring up war of independence in the Soviet Karelia in 1918 to 1922.

Georgia had at least 50% of the blame for that. They were a security threat to the ethnic Russians in Ossetia.

Eki...Finland was how big? 4 million people back then? The USSR was HOW BIG??? I agree it wasn't all simple, but you keep advocating diplomacy for all the world's ills when you see a war you dont'like, but you almost give Stalin justification for the invasion of 1939.

Georgia was to blame? Right...just like the hooker who gets killed or raped was asking for it because she wore a short skirt. Oh wait...that wasn't a hooker, just a girl coming home from the pub.

Georgia wasn't a security threat enough that they deserved the Russian army to flatten half the country. Diplomacy Eki...condemen the Russians the way you did the Yanks....c'mon, be a little consistent for once.

**Mark in Oshawa** · 21st September 2009, 08:24

Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't think Russian democracy — nor indeed Russian capitalism, come to that — ever took a form that we would recognise in the West, even before Putin.

It never got off the ground Ben. Yeltsin was lacking in keeping control of the people stealing from the state, the gangs and corruption. Putin came along to solve those issues, but really, he used their power base TO get elected.

Russia isn't the old USSR, but by god that isn't a good thing either. Putin is far more efficient, and the Russian economy actually is far more efficient than the USSR was too. Used to create havoc, that is a bad thing.