Richard Branson (Virgin) to save Honda together with Adrian Reynard?

[K-Pu]

And I see them in Spain, and we are supposed to be knee-deep into the worst crisis ever seen... And people keep buying them because if someone has enough money, there´s no crisis which can stop you. Or at least you won´t have serious trouble.

[Knock-on]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7915443.stm

Those cheeky Chinease are getting above their station again.

I wonder what proportion of 2008 global Land Rover sales this represents

[truefan72]

I dont know about the current % of middle class Chinese, but I saw a hell of a lot of BMW's, Merc's and Audi's on my last trip to China last year.

i see a ton of these cars in Nigeria and Cameroon too when I was there recently, along with Range Rovers, Hummers and the ever popular Pajero.

This does not mean that either market is prime to thes companies. It means that the few at the top have the means to buy multiple cars. And while they represent a very visible number, I very much doubt that they represent a significant percentage in total Global sales.

As a side note, did you "really" look at those cars or assumed they were BMW's and Audi's because they looked like them. China has a huge knock off problem with their domestic auto industry. Many of these cars being sold at a fraction of their original counterparts

http://www.wordplop.com/2008/05/07/c...-walk-instead/



http://www.monsterauto.ca/chinese-cars.php
Shuanghuan CEO is a look a like to the BMW X5


BYD f8 vs Mercedes Benz CLK

[truefan72]

This simply isn't true. 50% of car sales are to private individuals in China, this is a greater proportion than in the UK for example where the majority of sales are to either companies or the state. The massive rise in consumption over the past few years in China has been most marked with domestic goods, TVs, fridges etc etc. Look at the cars that are selling, most of them are passenger cars aimed at domestic users, not targeted at state industry. Again that is due to the rise of the middle class. The state is of declining importance in terms of influencing consumption.

Of course the majority of Chinese are not in a state to afford these goods let alone a car, but for China to be an important car market it only requires a small middle class.

of that 50% I would guess that 90% were purchases of chinese made cars averaging around $5,000 per car, which is what a good Mercedes knock off is being valued for. As I said purchasing powers and brand purchase tells a better story than raw statistics.

[Malbec]

I understand that, but what if those 250.000 people don't want a BMW but a Merc, a Porsche, a VW, and Audi, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Chrysler, Lexus or other high end model?!

Exactly. Got to capture the market and establish your brand while its growing, otherwise it'll go to someone else. Thats why people like BMW have to put the effort in now. No point entering when its a mature market and fight an uphill battle, just look at the effort Lexus and Infiniti are making to capture only a tiny market share in one of the maturest markets of all, Europe.

You see, they need at least a few millions people in a wealthier middle class in order to sell the 300000+ BMW that were sold last year in the US as they will not buy only BMWs.

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of knowledge about China and its middle class. As a proportion of the population they are not large, say 10-20%, equal to the total population of the UK and France combined. They are affluent, purchasing LCD TVs, mobile phones, private education for their kids. Their purchasing power on an international standard is currently not high and in most cases unable to stretch to a BMW or Merc, but they are currently buying Civics and Camrys instead. It really wouldn't take much time before they can stretch to buying BMWs in significant numbers though, probably not even a decade.

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that China is currently a big BMW market, just that it is the biggest potential market and one that BMW is concentrating on very hard (along with other makers).

Think about it like this. What is the maximum feasible percentage increase in sales over the next two decades BMW can expect in the US or Europe? Now what is the probable increase in sales BMW can expect in China or India?

Anyway, looks like this thread is coming to a close now as Virgin doesn't look interested in Honda, Reynard is nowhere to be seen and it looks like Brawn is leading a management buyout.

[Malbec]

I understand that, but what if those 250.000 people don't want a BMW but a Merc, a Porsche, a VW, and Audi, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Chrysler, Lexus or other high end model?!

Exactly. Got to capture the market and establish your brand while its growing, otherwise it'll go to someone else. Thats why people like BMW have to put the effort in now. No point entering when its a mature market and fight an uphill battle, just look at the effort Lexus and Infiniti are making to capture only a tiny market share in one of the maturest markets of all, Europe.

You see, they need at least a few millions people in a wealthier middle class in order to sell the 300000+ BMW that were sold last year in the US as they will not buy only BMWs.

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of knowledge about China and its middle class. As a proportion of the population they are not large, say 10-20%, equal to the total population of the UK and France combined. They are affluent, purchasing LCD TVs, mobile phones, private education for their kids. Their purchasing power on an international standard is currently not high and in most cases unable to stretch to a BMW or Merc, but they are currently buying Civics and Camrys instead. It really wouldn't take much time before they can stretch to buying BMWs in significant numbers though, probably not even a decade. Imagine a middle class as numerous as two large European countries as a virgin market for BMW?

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that China is currently a big BMW market, just that it is the biggest potential market and one that BMW is concentrating on very hard (along with other makers).

Think about it like this. What is the maximum feasible percentage increase in sales over the next two decades BMW can expect in the US or Europe? Now what is the probable increase in sales BMW can expect in China or India?

Anyway, looks like this thread is coming to a close now as Virgin doesn't look interested in Honda, Reynard is nowhere to be seen and it looks like Brawn is leading a management buyout.

[truefan72]

Exactly. Got to capture the market and establish your brand while its growing, otherwise it'll go to someone else. Thats why people like BMW have to put the effort in now. No point entering when its a mature market and fight an uphill battle, just look at the effort Lexus and Infiniti are making to capture only a tiny market share in one of the maturest markets of all, Europe.



I'm a bit surprised by the lack of knowledge about China and its middle class. As a proportion of the population they are not large, say 10-20%, equal to the total population of the UK and France combined. They are affluent, purchasing LCD TVs, mobile phones, private education for their kids. Their purchasing power on an international standard is currently not high and in most cases unable to stretch to a BMW or Merc, but they are currently buying Civics and Camrys instead. It really wouldn't take much time before they can stretch to buying BMWs in significant numbers though, probably not even a decade. Imagine a middle class as numerous as two large European countries as a virgin market for BMW?

I don't believe anyone is suggesting that China is currently a big BMW market, just that it is the biggest potential market and one that BMW is concentrating on very hard (along with other makers).

Think about it like this. What is the maximum feasible percentage increase in sales over the next two decades BMW can expect in the US or Europe? Now what is the probable increase in sales BMW can expect in China or India?

Anyway, looks like this thread is coming to a close now as Virgin doesn't look interested in Honda, Reynard is nowhere to be seen and it looks like Brawn is leading a management buyout.

This just anwswers my point a while back to both yo and knock-on that China. and india as still 20-25 years away from becoming dominant luxury car markets. Just not today, and not in the next few years