Discraceful - Olympic torch relay

[kalasend]

Even criminals didn't dare to flee to China - in Hong Kong they got a fair trial and a reasonable sentence

This part is plain wrong. The inefficient communication between HK and Mainland police force makes China the most convenient hiding place for HK criminals. And HK criminals caught in mainland, as long as they don't commit more crime there, are always handed over to HK(Yes, they do honor the separate administration system). So they got nothing to lose by running to China.

Anyways, I meant to say the followings:
1) It is ignorant to relate Tibet and Taiwan to China being communist ruled. A democratic China would not please the separatists. And a democratic China would not give up Tibet and Taiwan.

2) It is illiterate to think that just because people of a place want independence then they deserve to be independent and any opposing side is evil. Any nation would fight for the integrity of its sovereign land. History is not short of examples of this sort. Some nations managed to hang on to its land, some didn't. But at the end, who's evil?

3) All western nations desire a transparent, democratic but at the same time a weak, divided China. Some nations act the later by disguising with the former.

[Valve Bounce]

This part is plain wrong. The inefficient communication between HK and Mainland police force makes China the most convenient hiding place for HK criminals. And HK criminals caught in mainland, as long as they don't commit more crime there, are always handed over to HK(Yes, they do honor the separate administration system). So they got nothing to lose by running to China.

Anyways, I meant to say the followings:
1) It is ignorant to relate Tibet and Taiwan to China being communist ruled. A democratic China would not please the separatists. And a democratic China would not give up Tibet and Taiwan.

2) It is illiterate to think that just because people of a place want independence then they deserve to be independent and any opposing side is evil. Any country would fight for the integrity of its sovereign land. History is not short of examples.

3) All western nations desire a transparent, democratic but at the same time a weak, divided China. Some nations act the later by disguising with the former.

First of all, I can demonstrate one single cae where you are wrong in 1). In the case where there was an armed robbery of the jetfoil's casino takings between HK and China, those who were caught in HK received relatively light sentences; those caught in China were executed in the manner I described.
2) I don't think you even know the meaning of the word illiteracy. Maybe you might want to rephrase your paragraph. What the demonstrations are about are teh human rights abuses in Tibet - something wich illiteracy has nothing to do with.
3) You seem to like to dodge any discussions I make that show you in a poor light as in the post above.

You just like propaganda as long as it favours China - why not admit it?

[kalasend]

First of all, I can demonstrate one single cae where you are wrong in 1). In the case where there was an armed robbery of the jetfoil's casino takings between HK and China, those who were caught in HK received relatively light sentences; those caught in China were executed in the manner I described.
2) I don't think you even know the meaning of the word illiteracy. Maybe you might want to rephrase your paragraph. What the demonstrations are about are teh human rights abuses in Tibet - something wich illiteracy has nothing to do with.
3) You seem to like to dodge any discussions I make that show you in a poor light as in the post above.

You just like propaganda as long as it favours China - why not admit it?

I didn't dodge anything, I just tried to pull the discussion to what matters. You logics only revolve around these:
1) China is evil (and I don't even know whether you think the gov is evil or the people)
2) Since China is evil, anything she(or her ppl) says is lie
3) Because of 2), the only trust-worthy information come from (insert your favorite news agency)

You basically distrust anything that doesn't "demonize" China. Anything that does not match your perception about China is stamped with Chinese censorship or simply fake.

Like this recent Tibet thing, in HK we all saw from TV how the Tibetans burn cars, shops and attack on civilians(both ethnic Chinese and Tibetans). And then foreign media claim that Tibetan civilians got killed while protesting for human rights. Your response is simply that Chinese media(including HK)

And then even when you believe all the violent happenings, you say this is because of human rights violation done by the regime that caused the riot in the first place.

PS. I don't know where you pull that jetfoil news from, but i'll research on that. But one thing for you to think about: like the concept of "international sea area", the HK ocean border is very short from the land. Technically a sea robbery can be handled solely by Chinese military. Especially if the incident happens in between HK and Macao.

[Valve Bounce]

Just try to read my posts above and discuss those issues that I have made. Don't put words to me that I have not written. This is a discussion forum, not a propaganda megaphone.

The jetfoil robbery case is a demonstration of what happens when the perpetrators are later caught in both China and Hong Kong - not who has jurisdiction on the sea.

Just try to concentrate on the issues of the discussion.

[maxu05]

The original topic was the disgraceful behavior of the protesters attacking the Olympic Torch. Since then, the discussion has been about human rights in China, Hong Kong and Tibet. I feel that Kalasends comments are valid here, and should be included in the discussion. You seem to want to steer the discussions to suit your own preference, dismissing others opinions and arguments as not relevant when it suits you.

[Valve Bounce]

The original topic was the disgraceful behavior of the protesters attacking the Olympic Torch. Since then, the discussion has been about human rights in China, Hong Kong and Tibet. I feel that Kalasends comments are valid here, and should be included in the discussion. You seem to want to steer the discussions to suit your own preference, dismissing others opinions and arguments as not relevant when it suits you.

Well, perhaps you'd like to answer the points I addressed to you. I've given up discussing anything with Kalasand as he appears to skip the issues and just makes more and more out landish propaganda statements.

[Daniel]

The original topic was the disgraceful behavior of the protesters attacking the Olympic Torch. Since then, the discussion has been about human rights in China, Hong Kong and Tibet. I feel that Kalasends comments are valid here, and should be included in the discussion. You seem to want to steer the discussions to suit your own preference, dismissing others opinions and arguments as not relevant when it suits you.

What? THe protests are ABOUT human rights in Tibet. Stop making them two different things

[BDunnell]

The original topic was the disgraceful behavior of the protesters attacking the Olympic Torch. Since then, the discussion has been about human rights in China, Hong Kong and Tibet. I feel that Kalasends comments are valid here, and should be included in the discussion. You seem to want to steer the discussions to suit your own preference, dismissing others opinions and arguments as not relevant when it suits you.

So what? Isn't that what a discussion forum is about, or was it your wish to start a thread in which people just agreed that the protestors' behaviour was disgraceful, without any mention of the issues surrounding the protests?

[maxu05]

Every country has seen protests at one time or another, and they are dealt with accordingly. When protesters burn cars, smash shop windows and riot, what do you expect to happen ? In most countries, the police will move in and arrest the trouble makers. There are two sides to everything, though in this case, Chinese are being blamed for everything. You cannot tell me that these protests were not orchestrated to coincide with China's staging of the Olympics, though they claim it is the 59th anniversary of China's takeover of Tibet that has sparked it. I would think that the 60th anniversary would be a time when Tibetans might protest, but 59th ? I agree that the Tibetans should protest for autonomy, but sabotaging the torch relay in the manner that they have is not acceptable IMO. Perhaps you know a little more about Hong Kong than I do, but, most Chinese flock there to make more money these days, not to escape the so called Evil Chinese Empire. The amount of Mainland Chinese that flock to Macau for the weekend to gamble can show you that.

[BDunnell]

Every country has seen protests at one time or another, and they are dealt with accordingly. When protesters burn cars, smash shop windows and riot, what do you expect to happen ? In most countries, the police will move in and arrest the trouble makers. There are two sides to everything, though in this case, Chinese are being blamed for everything. You cannot tell me that these protests were not orchestrated to coincide with China's staging of the Olympics, though they claim it is the 59th anniversary of China's takeover of Tibet that has sparked it.

Of course they are timed to coincide with the Olympic torch procession! If you want to get maximum coverage for the issue about which you are protesting, you don't just hold it at any old time. I would have thought this was obvious.

Also, I would be interested to read your assessment of how the Chinese authorities clamp down on protests and dissent as opposed to the UK authorities. How many dissidents do we jail in the UK? Ought we to abandon our free press?