Open Wheel's dual identity

[the bro]

Before the split in the CART days, you had several distinct groups of fans. There were oval only fans, road course fans and fans that were in to it all. I found in those days it was sometimes bizarre when you would talk to people that supported only one type of racing. I knew people who would go to all the oval races, but wouldn't consider going to a road course event even though it was closer to their home. On the other side of the coin I knew many road course only fans. It was almost like the oval and road course races were 2 different products, even though they ran under the same banner and had the same cars and drivers.

In those days I don't think there was any hatred between the groups of fans, they just attended different races. After the split Probably the oval fans supported the IRL and the road course fans supported Champcar. After some of the unhappiness dies down from supporters of both sides, will you see the fans split along the same lines as before?

It will be interesting to see how the new league will market the product, especially since it looks like we are going back to a fifty fifty mix of tracks next year. How do you create a unique identity when you have 2 different catagories of events. Or maybe your identity is as the only league that runs such diverse events.

Interesting to remember before the big split in 95, there was a more Harmonius split between the fans of AOWR.

[V12]

Or maybe your identity is as the only league that runs such diverse events.

I believe this hits the nail on the head. Personally, as a European, I was naturally brought up watching racing on road circuits, but I enjoy oval racing for what it is and it makes a nice change, and I certainly don't agree with those who say open wheel cars are not suitable for racing on ovals, I don't buy that one bit.

Plus the fact that some drivers will be better suited to ovals and some to road courses, reduces the chance of the same driver winning all the time (yes I know a lot of drivers are good at both), and for example if we ever see multiple chassis manufacturers in that would help, I remember around the turn of the millennium in CART, the Lola was becoming the chassis of choice on the ovals, while Reynard, before they went bust anyway, still had the edge on road courses. So diversity in tracks helps diversity in, well, everything really.

[!!WALDO!!]

Before the split in the CART days, you had several distinct groups of fans. There were oval only fans, road course fans and fans that were in to it all. I found in those days it was sometimes bizarre when you would talk to people that supported only one type of racing. I knew people who would go to all the oval races, but wouldn't consider going to a road course event even though it was closer to their home. On the other side of the coin I knew many road course only fans. It was almost like the oval and road course races were 2 different products, even though they ran under the same banner and had the same cars and drivers.

In those days I don't think there was any hatred between the groups of fans, they just attended different races. After the split Probably the oval fans supported the IRL and the road course fans supported Champcar. After some of the unhappiness dies down from supporters of both sides, will you see the fans split along the same lines as before?

It will be interesting to see how the new league will market the product, especially since it looks like we are going back to a fifty fifty mix of tracks next year. How do you create a unique identity when you have 2 different catagories of events. Or maybe your identity is as the only league that runs such diverse events.

Interesting to remember before the big split in 95, there was a more Harmonius split between the fans of AOWR.

Hatred was fuel totally by the Internet. People not there telling the world it was one person's fault, when I saw the CART owners do everything in their power to damage the sport.
Racing is racing and I didn't care where and 95% of the people I talked to were "place" fans anyways.

[nigelred5]

I agree, there has always been at least two camps in Indycar racing however there was never the overt hostility that is apparent on the internet. I've always been a roadcourse fan because that was what I primarily attended as a kid. My favorite Indycar/CART races however, were always the oval events because they were different and very exciting to attend. They combined the local dirt oval excitement with the high speeds of the road courses. THERE is NOTHING like standing on the fence and seeing 19 second laps at Nazareth! I always saw the larger ovals were where the drivers that came up through the road course ranks and those from the short tracks were able to show their stuff on the same track.
What I was never a big fan of was the switch to all the street races and the slow abandonment of the ovals. Most street course races are events, not races for race fans IMHO. The sight lines and access to the track is just too limited for my tastes. The airport courses are my idea of an urban compromise if a proper road course isn't available.
I was always torn between the sides. I didn't agree with the way TG took his ball and ran so to speak, but I also openly criticized CART management especially when they announced the IPO.
I have never criticized anyone for being a fan of oval racing. Actually I defended them more often than not against people that clearly had little understanding of oval racing. I haven't always cared for the particular style of racing that the IRL package was providing at some tracks, but I appreciated what they were trying to accomplish. IMHO, CCWS made the final fatal error and sealed their fate in America in abandoning ovals.

The first season or two will be difficult, and hopefully those on the extremes will just fade away and we can get back to those days when we talked about racing and not who's idea of management was better.

[colinspooky]

I enjoy both.

Most important thing to me (many others?) is close racing. Road courses traditionally end up with a few cars spread out F1 style. Dull-ish to watch, especially if you are at the track.

Said this before, say it again - shorter road courses, more cars, more action (and I don't mean crashes) and more interesting racing. Brands Hatch Indy circuit is great for spectators - shorts and almost entirely visible from many places.

Of course getting a road course that is genuinely multi-groove is another trick, but how many have managed that? Not Brands Hatch Indy circuit.

Longer races, more yellow flags to bunch every one up again is also good - plus gives chance to get cup of tea in the breaks.

Ovals good generally for creating close racing - please note I said generally.

[Lousada]

I knew people who would go to all the oval races, but wouldn't consider going to a road course event even though it was closer to their home. On the other side of the coin I knew many road course only fans. It was almost like the oval and road course races were 2 different products, even though they ran under the same banner and had the same cars and drivers.

There is a big difference between attending an oval event and attending a roadcourse. I understand why someone would rather make a longer trip to see their preferred tracktype.
I don't think there were many roadcourse fans that boycotted ovals on the television or vice versa.

[bblocker68]

I enjoy both.


Said this before, say it again - shorter road courses, more cars, more action (and I don't mean crashes) and more interesting racing. Brands Hatch Indy circuit is great for spectators - shorts and almost entirely visible from many places.

Cleveland is one that allows a host of grooves. Edmonton also comes to mind. Road America is wide open in parts with long straights for passing. The CCWS "passing lane" was an interesting concept and to me. It made street courses more entertaining. Laguna Seca is primarily a parade in Joe Public's eyes, but it provides a great track with the most beautiful natural chicane on the planet.

Yeah, I'm a roadie guy at heart. On road/street circuits, it's not cars dueling cars that I care about, it's what the driver is doing in the cockpit. It's much more of a driver vs. track thing on a road or street course. I guess it's from all of the God-forsaken Sim racing I do all of the time. I now have a great appreciation of drivers that are fast and what they do to acheive their times. I love the roadies, BUT, I also remember the great races at the small tracks.

CART had great races at Phoenix, NHIS and Nazereth. It gets really fun when the leaders start coming up to lappers and have to negotiate traffic. The good guys will use the slower guys as "pics" to try and get the chasers to be stuck behind them. I haven't had the chance to watch a race at Richmond, but I think that would be entertaining.

As far as ovals go, I really like the ones where the drivers dont have the gas pegged to the floor and they can steer the car with the gas to daimond cut the turns, rotating the rear for better punch off the corner. Hell, even Indy takes some cunning, especially when under/oversteer is involved. When the car starts to fade, the throtle has to be feathered to survive.

It's gonna take a bit to get used to the cookie cutters though.

Great thread!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

AS someone who slammed CART and the CCWS for bailing on one oval after another, I too like Nige loved the cars on both types of circuits.

Was the hatred of the two sets of fans as deep as people made it out? I suspect for some yes, but indifference was the real growth industry. When the two series split, you had a large fan base who really tuned into for "Their" tracks and generally kept in touch for the races on the tracks that they were not large fans of. That said, when the split came, you had the two groups all the sudden pick up the war for "their" side. It was unhealthy, and generally stupid. Most fans watched the series as a whole, and got bored with the politics and not finding their teams and drivers when they tuned on the TV (I know people who never cottoned there WAS a split) but found NASCAR on the tube every week without the politics.

The dual identity only matters to the hard core. Race fans of the casual variety, that is about 90% of the TV audience and about 3/4 of the ones at the track will only notice bigger fields, better racing and in time, better TV coverage. This merger should have never been neccessary because the split was foolish to start with, but now that it is on....thank god that it is. OW racing needed this and the "dual" identity can live on within the hardcores that seem to want to live in the past.