When will we see 12th team on the grid?

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64623

So with Prodrive decisively dropping F1 plans, who will become 12th team in F1?

F1 fans have been waiting to see 12th team on the grid for a while, but that doesn't seem to happen (before 2002 there were huge hopes too, but these disappeared too...)

I can't understand. Since early 2006 it has been clear that from 2008 onwards it would be possible to use customer chassis (hence ~10 teams contested to join F1)... and now right before the start of the season it suddenly turns out that this is not possible?!?! How is such misunderstanding possible?

Now with the requirement of constructing your own chassis probably rarely anyone of those 10 teams, who were competing for that 12th slot, is interested in joining F1 any more. How much longer does it take before we finally see 12th team in reality, not just as a possilibity?

[trumperZ06]

It's likely to be quite a while before we see an additional team in Formula 1.

In fact, we may see the loss of Toro Rosso and Super Aguri occuring after the 2 year "grandfather clause" expires.

[SGWilko]

It's likely to be quite a while before we see an additional team in Formula 1.

In fact, we may see the loss of Toro Rosso and Super Aguri occuring after the 2 year "grandfather clause" expires.

......and if Toyota don't fulfill there promise within the self imposed 2 year timeframe, that may be another loss.

[PSfan]

Great thread, pardon me if I vent a little in here :

First, Pro-drive should give McRetards a great big thank-you basket for saving them a boat-load of money by causing them NOT to enter F1. Had Mcstupids wheren't the center of attention during 2007 then perhaps this customer BS would have been cleared up, and Pro-drive would be on the 2008 grid.

As for the 2 year "grandfather" rule. A) I haven't read anything confirming an agreement has been reached, and B) If I was Toro Rosso or Super Aguri, I would tell the FIA where to stick any "grandfather" ideas. Both teams where ready and willing to appear in court to prove that their cars complied with the 2007 regs... Which tells me:
a) the constructed their cars themselve
b) the designs are owned by them or a 3rd party
c) their parts are probably similar but in-compatible with their so called "supplier's" cars

I think once the Toro Rosso and Aguri car's were deemed "legal" then it would then be in Williams and that other team (Their name could possibly change by the time I'm finished this) best interest to agree to some customer car agreement, then FIA could at least impose some restrictions on them.

I would also like to thank David Richards and the whole Pro-Drive team for being probably the most lazy dumbasses that thought they could field a contender in F1. I'm sure they had the resources to Build a car from whatever information they bought from McLeran. Do their really need someone to do everything for them?!?

As to a possible 12th team. Eddie Jordan claimed he was one of the many who but in a bid to be the 12th team and suggested that it should be opened up again since Pro-drive didn't make the grid. Based on how he ran Jordan, he could easily do it again. (I believe I read that the Jordan team basically designed their car but got a whole bunch of 3rd party manufacturers to build their parts.) Or any potential team could also go with a similar plan as Midland was planning on doing, and that is to get a company like Lola to build their cars...

I believe the # of entrants trying for the 12th team was something like 22... I'm gonna go and see if I can confirm that...

[CNR]

with Toro Rosso i do not think it would be to hard for them to modify a minardi car plans



[img]http://i19.tinypic.com/81ptyyv.jpg[/img]
http://i19.tinypic.com/81ptyyv.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

......and if Toyota don't fulfill there promise within the self imposed 2 year timeframe, that may be another loss.

I do dread the day when manufacturers find F1 too expensive and/or unrewarding in terms of returns in sales. Renault does not appear to get any benefit from F1 success, and if these teams start to pull out, and nobody is i a position to replce them (technically as well as resource wise), then F1 will fall into a period of recession.

OK we may think of McLaren as in it for the long haul, but I clearly remember Mercedes pulling out of F1 when they no longer needed the benefit of being #1 to keep sales at an elevated position. Then BMW might find that it no longer will get the return/financial advantage they need if Mercedes pulls out.

And Honda appears to be going nowhere from year to year. And the stock market just took one helluva dive last night with the Dow plummeting 246.75 points

Who will be left in F1 apart from Ferrari? especially if Ferrari dominates to the point the remaining teams see their continued participation as an exercise in futility?

I think Bernie should start thinking of putting something back into F1 instead of greedily milking it year after year.

Now I'm feeling depressed.

[LeonBrooke]

In ten years we'll have Ferrari, McLaren using customer Ferrari engines, and a few teams running customer Ferrari chassis and engines or customer McLaren chassis with customer Ferrari engines.

...then we'll have Williams, running customer Ferrari engines, and complaining about all the customer cars on the grid

[SGWilko]

Renault does not appear to get any benefit from F1 success(

Indeed, in fact, the Reggie became a constructor (again) because they were not getting the increase in sales of their road cars from their engine's on track success.

The harsh reality is that the same can (in all probability) be said about their success as constructors.

I would eat me (chocolate) hat if they remain in the sport beyond 2012.

[Osella]

...but I clearly remember Mercedes pulling out of F1 when they no longer needed the benefit of being #1 to keep sales at an elevated position.

When was this, as far as I am aware they have been in F1 as a manufacturer effort from 1993 'til now with no breaks, and the only other time they were involved was the 1950's when they withdrew from all racing after Pierre Levegh's 1955 Le Mans crash into the crowd...

[Osella]

Now with the requirement of constructing your own chassis...

Actually, I believe this rule is almost always misinterpreted. It actually means that a team has to own the rights to the car they are racing. The customer situation has actually been the case for many many years, for example Scuderia Italia never actually constructed their own car. They just paid for Dallara/Lola designed cars, which were then built by those suppliers and handed over to the team to race and maintain.
Okay, that was under a different Concorde agreement, but the rule itself has been consistent, in the same way, Super Aguri do not actually construct the car themselves, the chassis are built in Japan by Honda (who have the design copyright), and licensed to SA to race and run..

So the rule is fairly messy, as you do not have to construct a car to be classified as a constructor. I think they should rename that championship the teams championship anyway...!

In such a way, I believe there will be no problems for Super Aguri or Toro Rosso unless the rule changes regarding third party designs run by an F1 team, after all it has been used by several teams in the past.

Then there is the other issue of old cars. As far as I am aware, there is absolutely no issue whatsoever with one team selling their previous years designs to another team, who can then copy them and re-register the design as their own for that season, just as Super Aguri did with the Arrows cars, and Sauber did with the Ferrari's.
What I don't understand is why Prodrive and McLaren didn't just come to that arrangement...

I believe the only reason is due to money issues over the concorde agreement, rather than breaking any of the FIA's technical regs.