McLaren Statement

Lets look at a few points re the McLaren statement.

1. Thank heavens they released it. It is 9 months too late, but at least it is now out.

2. Yes, there is still not 100% cast iron proof that the systems in question on the McLaren were influenced or copied from Ferrari, but the coincidence of this, in the light of the flow of info from Ferrari to McLaren, leaves little doubt (in my mind) that it is highly likely.....

3. McLaren should not be removed from the 2008 championship. As has been stated before, there are far too many good drivers, and a welcome influx of young blood.

4. Maybe Ron will go, but just how involved in all this were Whitmarsh & Mercedes (Haug)?

I am still reeling from all this, but for me the statement confirms that they (McLaren) have been at least very stupid, if not darn right arrogant. Why oh why, could McLaren have not seen the opportunity, when Stepney first made contact, to burn bridges, invite Jean to their HQ, show him waht Stepney was up to, and make Ferrari an ally, not alienate them even more........

Now, I am also sure (but there is no proof, is there......?) that 'spying' IS rife up and down the pitlane, but a regular flow of info from a 'live' employee, that simply is just 'not cricket'. And, didn't Stepney suggest he was getting info from Coughlan? Well, all I can say to that is 'two wrongs do not make a right'!

Lets just wait and see what the criminal investigation reveals, because if anything, that has the potential to uncover all the minutiae of this sorry saga.

I hope Heikki and Lewis have a great relationship, both on and off the track, time will tell - they'd better get on, because that end pit garage is awfully small : ........

At least there is one man who pinned his colours to the Mclaren flag who has the integrity to admit he was wrong and Mclaren were wrong.

Brave SGWilko, you are to be applauded.

[PSfan]

I read the full statement twice
and no where did it say that the information was used on the 2007 or 2008 car. they are admitting that more engineers were aware of the IP stuff and it was on several computers. But that's is about it. In 2 different portions, they make it abundently clear that the investigators found no evidenceof the information being used on the 2007 or 2008 car.

38: On 22 September 2007, McLeran wrote to Charlie Whiting seeking permission to use the [redacted - confidential] in the Japanese Grand Prix. That permission was granted on a "without prejudice" basis. [Senior McLeran Egineer] and [Senior McLeran Egineer] confirmed in their interviews that the [redacted - confidential] might be run on the 2008 car. In light of the documentary evidence, the [redacted - confidential] brake balance system appears to have been investigated and developed by McLeran as a result of the receipt of confidential Ferrari information

Clear that the investigators found no evidence of the information being used on the 2007 car my ass!

The Mcleran statement contains no real admission of guilt because should the FIA impose a really barbaric saction against them they would have no "legal" leg to stand on in regards to an appeal.

So all the sudden fantastic outrage some here are experiencing should first read the letter sent to the FIA than what some sites are interpeting.

The outrage isn't 100% from the McLeran statement, but a combination of that, the FIA findings, and the sense that F1 fans have been lied and cheated by McLeran for the whole 2007 season!

If they knew about this and deliberately misled the FIA then a fine is justified for that, but $100 million is still excessive IMO.

And in light of the new evidence from the FIA findings, $100 million is just scratching the surface... IMO...

As I recall Renault were in possesion of McClaren data and shared it amongst engineers...and their fine $0.

Is it such a hard concetp for you to digest that the $0 fine that Renault got was because it is the exact fine Mcleran got before evidence pointed at Mclerans Intent to use the questionable material!!!

I don't like the $0 fine either, but the precedent was set when McLeran claimed that only Coughlan had possesion of the material and there was zero chance of it being used to influence car design or race performance.

But now it sets another precident. in which any team can have possesion of it, gain technical knowledge of how their competitors may run their cars, and only risk sanctions if they find something worth while, and get caught trying to imitate... and thats if they aren't smart on how to hide that knowledge. Heck drivers caught speeding on pit lane during testing are subject to fines, why not this?

so the $100 million difference is in not coming clean initially?

No the $100 million fine was so that Max could afford a new car!

And as to Ferrari fans, this is by no means a vindication in any way shape or form. They are lucky that the FIA haven't in the past investigated them for their deliberate infractions. As I recall the FIA simply shifted the line of legality.

Like they did in Australia...

Australia even more proof that McLeran could gain adavantage from the Stetneygate scandal without it appearing on their own car:

71 We asked [Senior McLeran Engineer] during interview why he asked in the first place whether [Senior McLeran Engineer]'s information might have come from a mole. [Senior McLaren Engineer] said that his use of the word "mole" was a reference:
"to the fact I was aware that our protest [to the FIA] over the front floor stay [of Ferrari], partly involved a tip off from someone at Ferrari."

Partly? and the other parts where read from the documation labeled "how to build a 2007 Ferrari F1" as was mostly in possesion by Coughlan

I suspect that McClaren simply decided to fall on their own sword and end this whole thing rather than continue to waste time and money on a no-win situation.

No win... You got that right. only reason to justify holding the hearing in Feb. was because FIA probably believes the findings to be damning enough to warrent expulsion from 08, and so any decision that late would have zero effect on a car that would not race anyways.

I have heard from a pretty good source that all this information was known back in october and they recently went to FIA and asked them what it would take to end the harrasment/matter, The FIA probably said a highly public mea culpa and paying the fine will suffice. And McClaren agreed.

This is nothing more than a plea bargain ( to use a legal term) that pretty much ends the whole affair, with both sides sort of getting what they want.

From McClaren they get to move on, they issue a statement reiterating that no info was used on the 2007 or 2008 car. They get to sign Kovaleinen and prepare for the new year.

From FIA (ie MM) they get a public apology from McClaren and they get the fine paid.

This matter is now closed. If there really was an issue about the cars having Ferrari IP used in them then surely theywould have been subject to an ongoing investigation, and/or had their drivers points stripped in 2007.

So lets calm down with the smoking gun theiry or that the 2007 McClaren cr had Ferrari IP in it.

I guess in these dog days of winter, some here would see this in a disproportionate view, while others would use the clarification as the definitive evidence however inapproriate it may be.

I for one am glad the matter is over.
And so should we all, as we can get back to the business of racing.

And thats what bothers me about this "consider it closed" notion. Its December!!! I would have this thing talked to death, have every possible scenario out of the way, That McLeran 08 chasis x-rayed from front to back and guarantees that absolutely zero ferrari influence is there. I want assurances there will be no ghosts of 07 influencing the 08 season. And my dislike for ferrari stems from some "less then sporting" directions. I can see them agreeing to cancel the Feb hearing because they are aware from their own investigations that McLeran are still using aspects of the Ferrari information, and should McLeran still be competitive next year, then Ferrari can raise issue with it then, and perhaps DQ a competitor only when they prove a threat.

[tinchote]

I read the full statement twice
and no where did it say that the information was used on the 2007 or 2008 car. they are admitting that more engineers were aware of the IP stuff and it was on several computers. But that's is about it. In 2 different portions, they make it abundently clear that the investigators found no evidenceof the information being used on the 2007 or 2008 car.

PSFan beat me to the quote. You really think that the statement does not say that the info was used in the 2007 and 2008 cars?

I'm still waiting for a quote that shows the McLaren car gained advantage from Ferrari information. Neither the FIA letter or the McLaren letter have such a quote, even though it seems widely used as fact here.

It's already clear that the information was in circulation with intent to be used. They have already paid a huge fine for this taking place.

Intent to cheat does not benefit either a car it wasn't used on, or a car now subject to extra scrutiny to ensure that it doesn't benefit from information they got from Ferrari.

You gotta be kidding. The FIA document clearly states that McLaren made decisions around development based on the info received from Ferrari. Of course it is hard to quantify the influence of that into the car, but car performance is all about development: claiming that there was no evident performance gain from the info is a moot claim.

It's really interesting how the statement talks about "selective amnesia" from McLaren employees

[Valve Bounce]

PSFan beat me to the quote. You really think that the statement does not say that the info was used in the 2007 and 2008 cars?



You gotta be kidding. The FIA document clearly states that McLaren made decisions around development based on the info received from Ferrari. Of course it is hard to quantify the influence of that into the car, but car performance is all about development: claiming that there was no evident performance gain from the info is a moot claim.

It's really interesting how the statement talks about "selective amnesia" from McLaren employees

We have been going over this several times. I am going to say this once more: McLaren have greatly disappointed me through all this and I am no longer any fan of McLaren.

[ioan]

38: On 22 September 2007, McLeran wrote to Charlie Whiting seeking permission to use the [redacted - confidential] in the Japanese Grand Prix. That permission was granted on a "without prejudice" basis. [Senior McLeran Egineer] and [Senior McLeran Egineer] confirmed in their interviews that the [redacted - confidential] might be run on the 2008 car. In light of the documentary evidence, the [redacted - confidential] brake balance system appears to have been investigated and developed by McLeran as a result of the receipt of confidential Ferrari information

Clear that the investigators found no evidence of the information being used on the 2007 car my ass!

The Mcleran statement contains no real admission of guilt because should the FIA impose a really barbaric saction against them they would have no "legal" leg to stand on in regards to an appeal.



The outrage isn't 100% from the McLeran statement, but a combination of that, the FIA findings, and the sense that F1 fans have been lied and cheated by McLeran for the whole 2007 season!



And in light of the new evidence from the FIA findings, $100 million is just scratching the surface... IMO...



Is it such a hard concetp for you to digest that the $0 fine that Renault got was because it is the exact fine Mcleran got before evidence pointed at Mclerans Intent to use the questionable material!!!

I don't like the $0 fine either, but the precedent was set when McLeran claimed that only Coughlan had possesion of the material and there was zero chance of it being used to influence car design or race performance.

But now it sets another precident. in which any team can have possesion of it, gain technical knowledge of how their competitors may run their cars, and only risk sanctions if they find something worth while, and get caught trying to imitate... and thats if they aren't smart on how to hide that knowledge. Heck drivers caught speeding on pit lane during testing are subject to fines, why not this?



No the $100 million fine was so that Max could afford a new car!



Like they did in Australia...

Australia even more proof that McLeran could gain adavantage from the Stetneygate scandal without it appearing on their own car:

71 We asked [Senior McLeran Engineer] during interview why he asked in the first place whether [Senior McLeran Engineer]'s information might have come from a mole. [Senior McLaren Engineer] said that his use of the word "mole" was a reference:
"to the fact I was aware that our protest [to the FIA] over the front floor stay [of Ferrari], partly involved a tip off from someone at Ferrari."

Partly? and the other parts where read from the documation labeled "how to build a 2007 Ferrari F1" as was mostly in possesion by Coughlan



No win... You got that right. only reason to justify holding the hearing in Feb. was because FIA probably believes the findings to be damning enough to warrent expulsion from 08, and so any decision that late would have zero effect on a car that would not race anyways.



And thats what bothers me about this "consider it closed" notion. Its December!!! I would have this thing talked to death, have every possible scenario out of the way, That McLeran 08 chasis x-rayed from front to back and guarantees that absolutely zero ferrari influence is there. I want assurances there will be no ghosts of 07 influencing the 08 season. And my dislike for ferrari stems from some "less then sporting" directions. I can see them agreeing to cancel the Feb hearing because they are aware from their own investigations that McLeran are still using aspects of the Ferrari information, and should McLeran still be competitive next year, then Ferrari can raise issue with it then, and perhaps DQ a competitor only when they prove a threat.

Great post.
Gives the McLaren fans something to chew on.

[airshifter]

You gotta be kidding. The FIA document clearly states that McLaren made decisions around development based on the info received from Ferrari. Of course it is hard to quantify the influence of that into the car, but car performance is all about development: claiming that there was no evident performance gain from the info is a moot claim.

It's really interesting how the statement talks about "selective amnesia" from McLaren employees

The top of the page quote by PSfan is the most damning wording I can find in the FIA paper, and I've mentioned that pages back in the thread. If the worst they found is that something "appears" to have been influenced by the Ferrari information it leads to think that not much of it actually made it to the car. Since they cleard other systems and noted they were not influenced, I have to think they they dug fairly deep into the design of the car.

My point on this specific issue is that McLaren contacted Charlie Whiting before using the system, and was granted permission to do so. Of the papers I am reading, it is the only thing the FIA seem to think made it into the 2007 car.

[ioan]

Of the papers I am reading, it is the only thing the FIA seem to think made it into the 2007 car.

That is however more than enough.

[truefan72]

enough for a witch hunt and $100 million fine eh?

laughable,

talk about the pot calling the kettle black. besides I'm no mcclaren fanatic, I don't view things from a singular tifosi perspective. I do like most teams and most drivers, even Kimi. While I may lean towards LH's successes, it is a far cry from unable/unwilling to see beyond a certain fantasim. As I've said many times, this isn't warfare or an: "if you are not with us...you are against us" situation, which you seem to adopt.

You know, and PSfan knows, and a bunch of the other guys know that the overblown outrage has more to do with your own feelings towards the team than any facts laid out or presented, or EVEN ACCEPTED BY THE FIA AND FERRARI. You choose to see what you see as others do.

So instead of going on about a matter that has already been concluded and despite the lenghtly posts (by myself included) let's just agree to disagree and accept that all this continued talk really isn't going anywhere or changes anything except for our posts count.

I, McClaren, the FIA, and Ferrari have all moved on and accepeted the statement, so let's hope that you guys can as well.

[truefan72]

[i]
But now it sets another precident. in which any team can have possesion of it, gain technical knowledge of how their competitors may run their cars, and only risk sanctions if they find something worth while, and get caught trying to imitate... and thats if they aren't smart on how to hide that knowledge. Heck drivers caught speeding on pit lane during testing are subject to fines, why not this?

Seriously what F1 have you been watching and for how long.

That type of activity has always and I reiterate, always been in F1
OH, all that knowledge in mechanics/ engineers have in thir heads that they bring from their former team suddenly vanishes?
If Honda are more competitive next year, should Ross Brawn be investigated, 'cause he imparted his knowledge on a building a better machine with Honda?

The dangerous precident that is being set is not the manner in which teams may be punished for infractions, but as to who adjudicates and who administers and who decides what's or what's not worthy of a fine or the amount or mertits and investigation.

Teams used to figure this stuff out by themsleves with little or on problems until 2007 when Ferrari/FIAdecided to unleash armageadon on a particular team for what in summation was practically more hot air and little facts.

This is something that the two principles (like McClaren and Renault did prior)would get together and assess the damage and then move on.

Trust me when I tell you that this in the long term will do more damage to Ferrari than McClaren who, in the past, have proven to be habitual culprits of underhanded tactics in trying to gain an unfair advantage. Whereas teams before would complain to them and have the situation rectified quietly, now will demand $100 million fines, major investigations (as to when ecaxtly they did receive the emails and if they lied about that fact so they could run the dry's)
and a level of scrutiny that otherwhise would have faded away fairly quickly.

The FIA have also dug themselves in a hole now where they can't protect their favorite teams, cause vodafone, Hanjin, Mercedes Benz, etc as well as other teams would all complain about unfair practices/ double standards towards them and the teams they sponsor and levy pressure /threats to resolve the matter or see similar verdicts

[markabilly]

enough for a witch hunt and $100 million fine eh?

laughable,

talk about the pot calling the kettle black. besides I'm no mcclaren fanatic, I don't view things from a singular tifosi perspective. I do like most teams and most drivers, even Kimi. While I may lean towards LH's successes, it is a far cry from unable/unwilling to see beyond a certain fantasim. As I've said many times, this isn't warfare or an: "if you are not with us...you are against us" situation, which you seem to adopt.

You know, and PSfan knows, and a bunch of the other guys know that the overblown outrage has more to do with your own feelings towards the team than any facts laid out or presented, or EVEN ACCEPTED BY THE FIA AND FERRARI. You choose to see what you see as others do.

So instead of going on about a matter that has already been concluded and despite the lenghtly posts (by myself included) let's just agree to disagree and accept that all this continued talk really isn't going anywhere or changes anything except for our posts count.

I, McClaren, the FIA, and Ferrari have all moved on and accepeted the statement, so let's hope that you guys can as well.

Seriously what F1 have you been watching and for how long.

That type of activity has always and I reiterate, always been in F1
OH, all that knowledge in mechanics/ engineers have in thir heads that they bring from their former team suddenly vanishes?
If Honda are more competitive next year, should Ross Brawn be investigated, 'cause he imparted his knowledge on a building a better machine with Honda?

The dangerous precident that is being set is not the manner in which teams may be punished for infractions, but as to who adjudicates and who administers and who decides what's or what's not worthy of a fine or the amount or mertits and investigation.

Teams used to figure this stuff out by themsleves with little or on problems until 2007 when Ferrari/FIAdecided to unleash armageadon on a particular team for what in summation was practically more hot air and little facts.

This is something that the two principles (like McClaren and Renault did prior)would get together and assess the damage and then move on.

Trust me when I tell you that this in the long term will do more damage to Ferrari than McClaren who, in the past, have proven to be habitual culprits of underhanded tactics in trying to gain an unfair advantage. Whereas teams before would complain to them and have the situation rectified quietly, now will demand $100 million fines, major investigations (as to when ecaxtly they did receive the emails and if they lied about that fact so they could run the dry's)
and a level of scrutiny that otherwhise would have faded away fairly quickly.

The FIA have also dug themselves in a hole now where they can't protect their favorite teams, cause vodafone, Hanjin, Mercedes Benz, etc as well as other teams would all complain about unfair practices/ double standards towards them and the teams they sponsor and levy pressure /threats to resolve the matter or see similar verdicts

Humm, are really RD using an assumed name or do you just do Mac's press releases??