Good old Bernie....

[airshifter]

Well now.... I wonder if this will get messy.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/motor...le-2023-08-17/

[Tazio]

Felipe Baby

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[airshifter]

I don't think anybody would have to prove anything other than the fact that the race results should not have been included in the season results.

By including the race they allowed several drivers to pay a penalty of positions lost in the race, as well as changing the finishing order of constructors at the end of the season.

We know the race was fixed, and if these lawsuits continue we might find out how early people in the governing bodies knew it was fixed. Bernie could well take it to the grave, but depending on where the information flowed from it might still be very condemning of the governing bodies. And if the right information is found money will no doubt change hands.

[Bagwan]

Sorry, that is ridiculous. A race took place in spite of the crash. And cars that finished that race deserved to be rewarded for how they finished that race. It is the same as saying the race results for the 2021 Abu Dhabi race should not have been included in the 2021 championship.

It is also quite an exaggeration to say that race was fixed at lap 14 of a 60-lap race. If they want to fix the race they would do a Masi at the end of the race. You only know things from hearsay and speculations of what Ecclestone is claimed to have said. At worst mistakes were probably made. The idea that Ecclestone and Mosley fixed a championship outcome is quite ridiculous to say the least. They had their flaws but this sort of thing is not one of them.

The problem with this sort of accusation is that they tanish the names of good people.

Everything that happened after that intentional crash was affected by it , and different from the situation that would have ensued had the crash not occurred .

If it is proven that the Max and Bernie show knew about the facts before the end of the season , and that the "intentional" aspect of it was clear , then the race should certainly be thrown out .

Sure , it might look ugly , but that episode was an ugly one , and wiping up and making things right in the end , rather than "tarnish the names of good people" , actually does the opposite .

Had Jr. not come out with the truth eventually , it might have all gone away . Had Ecclestone not made his memory fade interview , giving in that they knew before the awards were given out , Massa wouldn't have a leg to stand on in all of this .

What Air told you was not ridiculous at all .

And it has no similarity at all with what happened in Abu Dhabi .
None .

[airshifter]

However, Bernie's comments have opened up an ugly can of worms. The old fart should be relegated away from cameras, microphones etc

The problem with this sort of accusation is that they tanish the names of good people.

It's not really a surprise that you think such accusations can tarnish the names of people is it?



If they had the info, it might come to light that they just looked the other way and let it happen, knowing the ruleset required otherwise. I would imagine that if the info was out there, more than a few people would have been in the chain of information.

I'm going to dig some, as I recall Bernie doing an interview where he said race fixing was worse than cheating in his mind. It would seem to me he changed his opinion on that fairly quickly when it came to light that the race was fixed. All in all, Renault got off fairly easy when said and done. The disqualification was suspended for two years, Flavio and Symonds ended back up in motorsport after appealing to higher courts, and Renault ended up paying out some cash on a libel suit from the Piquet's.

[Steve Boyd]

I'm going to dig some, as I recall Bernie doing an interview where he said race fixing was worse than cheating in his mind. It would seem to me he changed his opinion on that fairly quickly when it came to light that the race was fixed.

Bernie strikes me as the sort of bloke who says anything he thinks his listener(s) want to hear. That's why he can never remember what he said and why I never believe a word he says.

[The Black Knight]

Don't get me wrong, l do sympathize with Massa for the cruel turn of events that saw him lose the 2008 championship by one point. That was same sort of turn of events that saw Hamilton lose the 2007 driver's title by one point to Kimi. It is just the way it is. But suing the FIA and F1M is not cool. He is looking like a sore loser. I get that 2008 was his only real chance of winning a driver's title. And he came so close.

I look at differently- the FIA have a sporting responsibility to ensure fairness. It has failed repeatedly throughout the years on this and in many cases covered up cheating and sabotaged drivers. I’m tired of this I’m F1. It’s about time someone did something about it.

[airshifter]

I look at differently- the FIA have a sporting responsibility to ensure fairness. It has failed repeatedly throughout the years on this and in many cases covered up cheating and sabotaged drivers. I’m tired of this I’m F1. It’s about time someone did something about it.

And really when you go back to Crashgate, the winners were Renault as well as Symonds and Briatore. Though the FIA dragged their feet and imposed what seemed like harsh penalties, the penalties had no real long term impact.

[Bagwan]

More info is coming out on why Massa thinks he has a case. Apparently, after the race trophy presentation at the 2008 Brazilian GP, Nelson Piquet Sr approached Charlie Whiting to inform him of the conspiracy that occurred at the Singapore GP earlier that year. Apparently, the basis of Massa's case was that the FIA and FOM should have responded within 4 days of receiving that information by stating their course of action on the matter, they claim this is according to the F1 statutes and regulations. The basis of the case seems to be that they did not act because they conspired to act against Massa's interest; allegedly.

Now, this information alone spins up a number of theories in my head.

1. Why did Nelson Piquet not contact the FIA earlier upon knowing about the conspiracy from his son but waited several months to do so? More importantly, why did he not contact the FIA at the start of the race but at the end when the championship outcome had been decided? Mind you, decided against his fellow countryman by the slightest of margins.

2. Could it be that Charlie Whiting smelled a rat and thought there was a scheme to overturn the championship outcome?

3. Is the FIA's lack of response an actual response to say we know what you are trying to do buddy and we are not buying it?


Unfortunately, Charlie Whiting is not with us to give us a clear idea of what was and was not said. We can imagine that Mr. Whiting [RIP] would have been faced with two separate issues to analyze, namely:-

(a) Was he confronted with a fraudulent attempt to alter the outcome of the championship?

(b) How to proceed with the information about the conspiracy of Singapore.

If he had concluded that the timing of the notification was suspicious and he thought fraud was afoot, the official course of action may well have led to a former F1 champion being found guilty of attempting to commit fraud. In this case, his lack of action may have been to avoid that outcome. You have to bear in mind that the informer's son had been an active party in bringing the conspiracy about. The credibility of the informant would have seemed quite dodgy to say the least.


Timing appears to be a very crucial factor in all actions leading to this case. Because the timing of Massa's choice to challenge took several years to materialize. They seem to conveniently attribute the basis now acting to be on information originating from Bernie Ecclestone who happens to not recollect ever saying anything of the nature.

Of course, the natural reaction to this is to think Ecclestone is senile and has lost his sharp wit and sense of diplomacy. What is questionable is, did Massa already know of the Piquet-Whiting dialogue from his countryman Nelson Piquet Sr or Jr? It is certainly very hard to believe that the Piquets would not have informed Massa that same weekend or shortly after of the conspiracy and the fact that the FIA has been notified of it.

Like the delayed action to notify the FIA of conspiracy, the legal action was delayed and only came into action after the late Chalie Whiting had passed away. Conveniently, he is not present to argue the case for FIA in the action and thought process that transpired on that faithful day.

The Massa story gains sympathy on the back of the raw emotions that linger over the shameful Abu Dhabi incident where it appeared clearer than ever that the outcome of the 2021 championship may have been predetermined.

The more l look at the Massa action, the more questionable it becomes to me. You may have a different opinion of course. I am just not comfortable seeing Charlie Whiiting's name and reputation run through the mud because he is not here to defend himself. That is what it is going to come down to, he failed in his duty to act.

You seem to assume Nelson Sr. knew what had happened when it did .
Is that true ?
It may have been that junior didn't let anybody know right away , not even dad .

[Bagwan]

Piquet Sr probably did not know in Singapore. But he must have known not very long after. Which may have been not very long after the event. He must have known weeks before the Brazillian GP at least. It is not believable that he only knew about it after the final race of the season.

2008 FIA Calendar

15 28th September Singapore Grand Prix Singapore Street Circuit (night race)
16 12th October Japanese Grand Prix Fuji Speedway
17 19th October Chinese Grand Prix Shanghai International Circuit
18 2nd November Brazilian Grand Prix Autodromo Jose Carlos Pace, Interlagos, Sao Paulo

So , you don't actually know then ?