Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

**TypeR** · 31st December 2022, 05:08

Originally Posted by focus206

I never realized Latvala won more WRC events than Hirvonen (or Solberg), and yet he's never been a serious contender for the title...

but he is ,,better,, than many world champions

**AnttiL** · 31st December 2022, 08:55

Originally Posted by TypeR

but he is ,,better,, than many world champions

I think you are missing the point of this listing. I'm giving points for certain achievements like win is 100 points and champion title 1000 points. Thus, winning 10 rallies is equal to a world title. Some drivers have more wins, some more podiums, some more stage wins, some more finishes etc. Lack in one area can be compensated with success in another. It is very interesting to see the result unfold. Otherwise we could just use the ewrc-results world title list and settle for that.

And in case you're just angry because JML is above Tänak, fear not, Tänak would climb ahead already by winning Monte. In any case he will most likely climb soon to #11 ahead of Mikkola and Röhrl as well, maybe even to top ten.

**EstWRC** · 31st December 2022, 10:02

I understand your system but For my taste, I would put all the world championships winning drivers as first 19 and then after them the guys who haven’t won a championship.

For me it’s weird to see Latvala ahead of Kalle, Ott, Solberg, Vatanen, Blomqvist

**seb_sh** · 31st December 2022, 10:25

Originally Posted by EstWRC

I understand your system but For my taste, I would put all the world championships winning drivers as first 19 and then after them the guys who haven’t won a championship.

For me it’s weird to see Latvala ahead of Kalle, Ott, Solberg, Vatanen, Blomqvist

Latvala is maybe a bit of a special case because had a career so long his points maybe are a bit inflated. Still, remember he was the youngest winner at his time and for a while he was quite fast. In the end it's a data driven thing, that's the limit of the system.

It also doesn't take into account "potential". For example we all imagine Kalle will go on to win many rallies and titles but imagine if Kalle never wins a rally again and Evans and Tanak dominate him for the next 5 years, he starts to crash etc do you still think he is so good as you do now?

Kudos to Antti for putting in the work.

**EstWRC** · 31st December 2022, 10:32

Originally Posted by seb_sh

Latvala is maybe a bit of a special case because had a career so long his points maybe are a bit inflated. Still, remember he was the youngest winner at his time and for a while he was quite fast. In the end it's a data driven thing, that's the limit of the system.

It also doesn't take into account "potential". For example we all imagine Kalle will go on to win many rallies and titles but imagine if Kalle never wins a rally again and Evans and Tanak dominate him for the next 5 years, he starts to crash etc do you still think he is so good as you do now?

Kudos to Antti for putting in the work.

To each their own

IMO it’s more difficult to win a championship than to win a rally.

If Kalle wouldn’t win a single rally or championship again (which will never happen) then I would still rate him higher than Latvala.

**AnttiL** · 31st December 2022, 10:41

Originally Posted by EstWRC

IMO it’s more difficult to win a championship than to win a rally.

10 rallies, not just one. And usually winning a title also involves winning some rallies...

If Kalle wouldn’t win a single rally or championship again (which will never happen) then I would still rate him higher than Latvala.

This is the same as with Henri Toivonen who had a relatively short career. People say he would have been a champion, but it's just would. Same with Kalle, people say he will be a 9 time world champion if he just continues as long, but if he quits earlier, it's a big would. The stats don't understand this word

**AnttiL** · 31st December 2022, 10:42

Originally Posted by EstWRC

I understand your system but For my taste, I would put all the world championships winning drivers as first 19 and then after them the guys who haven’t won a championship.

For me it’s weird to see Latvala ahead of Kalle, Ott, Solberg, Vatanen, Blomqvist

Thanks for using "for my taste" and "for me". Everyone can make their own lists, but this one is mine

**cali** · 31st December 2022, 15:43

Good list, maybe not fully for "my" taste but it's much better and adequate than the Dirtfish one.

And also there's some metrics in it while maybe you (or we) can develop the logic behind it overall very good job!

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

**dimviii** · 31st December 2022, 17:06

young Malcolm
https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status...40602335379465

**AnttiL** · 31st December 2022, 18:04

Originally Posted by cali

Good list, maybe not fully for "my" taste but it's much better and adequate than the Dirtfish one.

And also there's some metrics in it while maybe you (or we) can develop the logic behind it overall very good job!

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

I have the data, we can tweak the parameters and see how the list changes. For example we can make EstWRC version with 10 000 points for a championship title so champions will be for sure at the front. I'll get back to that later when I have more time.

But happy new year everyone!