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Thread: Austrlia GP Part 2
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20th July 2020, 06:17 #61
I read an article by Lewis in which he was pretty scathing of F1 being a white dominated sport with no diversity. Iirc he referred to there being no disparity in the "industry" which I took to mean F1 or motorsport in general. I dont have the exact link but it has been well documented elsewhere online.
However I do think with his recently announced foundation which is attempting to promote motorsport/engineering education paths/routes for black people, the penny has finally dropped on what the reason for that is..
Of course there has to be some, just not as many as you might expect percentage wise compared to other ethnic groups.
Are there really loads of black engineers in education at the top of the US Uni's? A quick google search 'lack of black engineers' suggests otherwise. One article even suggesting racism at school, college, universities as the reason for that.
Why that is I do not know... I suspect the reason for the disparity is mainly a cultural thing rather than pure racism. Of the 9 black people I know, 2 of them are musicians, 4 work in retail, 3 others in general employment. Most of them are also involved sports, mainly football (not professionally) but not one of them employed or has a hobby in anything engineering orientated.
I know that is way too small a sample to gleen anything truly representative from but it does appear to be backed up by a simple google search, feel free.
When I decided I wanted to study Engineering, I didnt need any encouragement or for it to be promoted to me. It was apparent as a child, wanting to know how everything worked, dismantling, repairing, re-assembling everything at home. I already knew what I wanted to do before I reachex high school.
If it is cultural, as it seems to me.. is it right to accuse the education system of being racist and also try to promote cultural change because there is a minority in a given sector... mainly because if we dont get more black employees there we will be accused of being racist?
Absolutely.. One rotten apple doesnt make all cops or white people racist scumbags though. The vast majority of police generally do an amazing job in the face of much adversity and hate, we only really hear about the bad cases and I think people need to recognise that.
Indeed. While I might not agree with every single thing you have said, I agree with most of it and we are able to discuss it without hurling personal insults at each other which is key for any meaningful debate, period.
Others here could learn something from that... and considering the subject being discussed here, I hope that with it being kinda ironic and hypocritical to be so intolerant of opposing views, it is not totally lost on them.
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20th July 2020, 09:36 #62
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I would not rely too much on this information. Most black british graduate work in europe of further abroad, they find they would live below the poverty line if they only focus on finding work inside the UK, hence must look abroad to earn a living. That group working abroad would not feature in this survey hence it is not representative of the true state of earnings.
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20th July 2020, 09:58 #63
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Well, the point is to compare people who are actually living in the UK, right? I think that's much more useful than to compare by birthplace.
Besides, I believe some bits, particularly "most black British graduates" and "find they would live below the poverty line" require some actual evidence. But for me it's fairly hard to see how a university graduate would typically live below the poverty line in the UK (at least if we're talking about STEM professions).
On top of that, it's hard to see how only uni graduates of specific ethnicity would be affected. I'd be very much surprised if being a black engineer meant that you couldn't get a good paying job in the UK, but being white with the same qualifications didn't.
Also, you might be missing a point here. If we're talking uni graduates in the UK, which usually features very expensive tuition fees (barring Scotland), then the proportion of black people who access uni is bound to be much lower than that of whites as blacks typically have less income, which in turn means that the proportion of blacks needing to leave the country would be lower than whites.
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20th July 2020, 10:05 #64
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Sorry, l did not make clear that these group have their homes and family in the UK but work abroad. And l can understand your disbelief of graduates living under the poverty line. This phenomena exist across the races actually. There are both white and black graduates living below the poverty line for various reasons. So this is not uncommon.
Last edited by Nitrodaze; 20th July 2020 at 10:10.
Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
William Shakespeare
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20th July 2020, 12:44 #65
I'd like to see your evidence that UK based engineers working abroad do not feature in the survey. I suspect you just dont like the data very much.
Also.. The UK has a shortage of Engineers. Are you suggesting that UK employers in the Engineering sector are so racist that they would rather not employ a black Engineer than fill the role to give their company the manpower to meet work demand and prosper?
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21st July 2020, 12:39 #66
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Better a witty fool than a foolish wit.
William Shakespeare
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27th July 2020, 17:31 #67
Ah, I see. I can't comment, since I haven't read the quotes. But whether it's actual institutional racism, unintended bias or just a closed loop culture (which F1 does seem to be, what with the same old names from decades gone by keep popping up), there certainly is a lack of diversity in F1. I mean, it would be pretty hard to argue against that. As I mentioned, this lack of diversity isn't just restricted to Blacks, but also other ethnicities and women. How Hamilton expressed that fact, I'm unaware. But I pointed out several years ago how various teams were trotting out (all White) females in PR roles for the cameras. And even Lewis has a White female trainer. As well, Lewis' closest business advisor is a White male - to say nothing of his mother. And he's dated women of all ethnicities. So, I can't really see that he has any deep racial hangups about White people, in or out of F1. But he is correct to point out the deficiencies that F1 and FOM have in this area, whatever the basis may be.
If Hamilton is putting his money where his mouth is, then I guess that's a good thing, right? He could fund some scholarships and appear at some schools and just that would help - since he's such a recognizable figure in the UK and Europe. Get all kinds of kids involved in STEM and other professional pursuits.
Of course there has to be some, just not as many as you might expect percentage wise compared to other ethnic groups.
Are there really loads of black engineers in education at the top of the US Uni's? A quick google search 'lack of black engineers' suggests otherwise. One article even suggesting racism at school, college, universities as the reason for that.
But again, working for an F1 team, or simply in the FOM organization, an engineering degree is not necessary for all positions or functions. In certain business functions, it wouldn't even be preferred. I had a quick look at the MercedesAMGF1 site yesterday. Open positions included roles in technical, operations, race team and business. Of the six open positions I saw, as best I could tell from reading the descriptions and requirements, only one of the six open positions required any sort of engineering background, and another one required more of a machining and/or fabrication background. The others weren't based on having an engineering related background - really more business or human resources.
Why that is I do not know... I suspect the reason for the disparity is mainly a cultural thing rather than pure racism. Of the 9 black people I know, 2 of them are musicians, 4 work in retail, 3 others in general employment. Most of them are also involved sports, mainly football (not professionally) but not one of them employed or has a hobby in anything engineering orientated.
I know that is way too small a sample to gleen anything truly representative from but it does appear to be backed up by a simple google search, feel free.
When I decided I wanted to study Engineering, I didnt need any encouragement or for it to be promoted to me. It was apparent as a child, wanting to know how everything worked, dismantling, repairing, re-assembling everything at home. I already knew what I wanted to do before I reachex high school.
If it is cultural, as it seems to me.. is it right to accuse the education system of being racist and also try to promote cultural change because there is a minority in a given sector... mainly because if we dont get more black employees there we will be accused of being racist?
I would say, if we want a more robust society, which includes things like the judicial system, educational opportunities and health care, then there is certainly no sin in pointing out current shortcomings and dealing with them.
Absolutely.. One rotten apple doesnt make all cops or white people racist scumbags though. The vast majority of police generally do an amazing job in the face of much adversity and hate, we only really hear about the bad cases and I think people need to recognise that.
Indeed. While I might not agree with every single thing you have said, I agree with most of it and we are able to discuss it without hurling personal insults at each other which is key for any meaningful debate, period.
Others here could learn something from that... and considering the subject being discussed here, I hope that with it being kinda ironic and hypocritical to be so intolerant of opposing views, it is not totally lost on them.
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