New R4 Car - Think Tank

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's not that simple with R5 due to rather complicated rules. It's actually very difficult to develop it. Every team found that, even VW had a lot of issues in R5 development. The main problem is that You have to use a lot of stock parts and You have a given price list not only for the car but also for most of its parts. This is extremely difficult to handle.

Speaking of R5 costs and especially parts, M-Sport told us they carry a parts stock of £2.5m to the rallies for their Fiesta R5 customers.

This makes it easier for their customer cars to source what they need but its certainly not much cheaper.

[Zeakiwi]

Probably been put elsewhere - computer drawing Subaru compact for Europe 2020? - probably a fiction. Sharing a Yaris chassis? like the Subaru BRZ/ Toyota 86 ? to be Built on the same production line?
from brm fb linked from syder 7 japan
R4 candidate if ever appears in reality? (semi team setup similar to BTCC subaru stationwagons?) rather than full wrc
https://spyder7.com/article/2018/11/06/8993.html

[Sulland]

Fiesta bad (we don´t need R1,R2,R4 and R5 from same car)

Dacia yes please !

Why, if a driver is a huge Ford fan, and want to buy a R4, he should be able to buy one.

For a team planning to do a season in a 4wd its usually about budget.
Budget to buy a car, new or used.
Budget to run the car in x rallies.
Budget to maintain the car in top shape.

Lets say that a R4 cost 150 000€, a R5 cost 250 000€, both new.
Running costs are probably more or less the same per rally.
Maintenance is said to be 20 to 30% less on the R4. Depending on the series, that could also become a lot of money. Not sure what a season in ERC or WRC2 will cost, but to get an easy figure to calculate with lets say 100 000 in ERC, that could be another 30 000 saved by choosing a R4.

using these unsure numbers a team could save 130 000€ first season.
Not bad!

What we do not know yet are how well the R4 will hold up, and if the 20-30% savings will stick.

[Mirek]

It doesn't work like that. To have money from sponsors you need results (unelss it's your own money, aka Al Quassimi & co. style and in that case you usually don't have a need for cost saving). That means that the performance is first and formost important thing. It's much easier to get certain amount of money for a driver who can convince his sponsors that he is ready to fight for the overall victory than 3/4 of the same sum for someone who presents them an idea to try to do the championship with a cheaper but slower car.

As it was said the R4 makes sense for overseas markets but not much for Europe.

For Your infomation around 2012-2014 in your math to drive older Punto S2000 or Proton S2000 was way more cost-effective yet nearly nobody did it. Simply because the cars were slower than than the Fabia.

[Sulland]

See your point Mirek, but you are lucky coming from a country where rally is big, and business see potential in sponsoring motorsport.

in many countries that is not the case, and up and coming drivers in many cases will have to pay most of it themselves. Many young talented drivers are either driving in national classes or R2 too long. Many quit rally, due to expenses.

For north european countries where cross country skiing, and football steal all the big sponsors, it is hard times to get a season even in the national series.

Getting in the Mirage and R4 might help, but still very expensive on a normal salary, at least in my country.
So now you know why I feel a cheap R3 4wd ala the old N4 class is a good idea.

[Jarek Z]

To have money from sponsors you need results (...) That means that the performance is first and formost important thing. It's much easier to get certain amount of money for a driver who can convince his sponsors that he is ready to fight for the overall victory than 3/4 of the same sum for someone who presents them an idea to try to do the championship with a cheaper but slower car.

Is a R4 car eligible for ERC2?

[Mirek]

AFAIK no

[PLuto]

It doesn't work like that. To have money from sponsors you need results (unelss it's your own money, aka Al Quassimi & co. style and in that case you usually don't have a need for cost saving). That means that the performance is first and formost important thing. It's much easier to get certain amount of money for a driver who can convince his sponsors that he is ready to fight for the overall victory than 3/4 of the same sum for someone who presents them an idea to try to do the championship with a cheaper but slower car.

As it was said the R4 makes sense for overseas markets but not much for Europe.

For Your infomation around 2012-2014 in your math to drive older Punto S2000 or Proton S2000 was way more cost-effective yet nearly nobody did it. Simply because the cars were slower than than the Fabia.

I dont agree with you. Comparison with S2000 is not the best, because you are talking about same cars in category. R4 was from beginning thought as lower class than R5, it should be a step between R5 and fastest 2WD cars - with the speed, price and costs. And with all protos or nationally homologated cars, I think there is still a lot of place for them, also in Europe. For me the biggest problem for that project was that "Oreca way" is simply too expensive...

[PLuto]

Is a R4 car eligible for ERC2?

Eurosport was trying to have R4 in ERC2 also for 2018, but it was refused by FIA. We will see what will happen for 2019. There are some teams interested in doing ERC with R4 next year...

[Mirek]

I dont agree with you. Comparison with S2000 is not the best, because you are talking about same cars in category. R4 was from beginning thought as lower class than R5, it should be a step between R5 and fastest 2WD cars - with the speed, price and costs. And with all protos or nationally homologated cars, I think there is still a lot of place for them, also in Europe. For me the biggest problem for that project was that "Oreca way" is simply too expensive...

Sorry but no such class exists in the current FIA scheme. Both R5 and R4 are RC2 class.

Besides that it's clear that overall results are the most important for the sponsors and a car sitting one class lower but being only marginally less expensive doesn't make economical sense.