Thoughts on current F1 Regulations

[Nitrodaze]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121497
Mercedes motorsport boss Toto Wolff has expressed objections to the prospect of the introduction of a cheap engine alternative into Formula 1.
- Autosport, 25th Oct 2015

This afternoon, I heard Ron Dennis on the BBC World Service, express what sounded like utter disgust at the through that Honda might supply Red Bull with engines.

The reactions of the manufacturer teams are basically as pig-headed as Bernie Eccleston. F1 is currently in a race to eat itself - the embodiment of Ouroboros.

Last seat in the house looks like an interesting satire, l have ordered a copy. I think l would love it from the few pages that l read on Amazon.

Just in case you are wondering what l am talking about, l am talking about a book by Rollo called "Last seat in the house". Go get it. :-)

[Nitrodaze]

It is looking like the Cheap engine proposal has met with a cold shoulder from the manufacturing teams. But all signs seem to indicate that the FIA are going to try to force the issue and see what happens. From the look of things, this would put some pressure on the Lotus -Renault deal, Mercedes would seriously be reconsidering their position and this may give Honda a face saving exit strategy. It all comes down to Ferrari's reaction which has been somewhat quite on the matter as they contemplate things.

It is safe to say that we are about to witness a tug of war between the FIA and the manufacturing teams on this matter. One side will come out of it with egg in face whatever the outcome. The reality is that teams like Mercedes, Renault, Honda are likely not to find commercial advantages with the cheap engine scheme. Of course this would depend on whether these teams are willing to produce cheap engines for their customers. Now, whatever format these cheap engines may take, they are unlikely to be as competitive as the hybid engines which would be much more expensive due to the specification of the hybrid era. It would seem the FIA are finding their regulations have produced a situation of expensive engines and are clumsily taking a U-Turn.
I say clumsily because they are throwing out most of their good policies to try to make the Cheap engine idea work. For instance, the FIA are ditching their green policy of cleaner F1 and low fuel consumption. And they are likely to scrap their safety policy and return to refuel at pit stops. Just to name a few. This battle is one that would rumble into the 2016 and may produce some interesting controversy.

[The Black Knight]

It is looking like the Cheap engine proposal has met with a cold shoulder from the manufacturing teams. But all signs seem to indicate that the FIA are going to try to force the issue and see what happens. From the look of things, this would put some pressure on the Lotus -Renault deal, Mercedes would seriously be reconsidering their position and this may give Honda a face saving exit strategy. It all comes down to Ferrari's reaction which has been somewhat quite on the matter as they contemplate things.

It is safe to say that we are about to witness a tug of war between the FIA and the manufacturing teams on this matter. One side will come out of it with egg in face whatever the outcome. The reality is that teams like Mercedes, Renault, Honda are likely not to find commercial advantages with the cheap engine scheme. Of course this would depend on whether these teams are willing to produce cheap engines for their customers. Now, whatever format these cheap engines may take, they are unlikely to be as competitive as the hybid engines which would be much more expensive due to the specification of the hybrid era. It would seem the FIA are finding their regulations have produced a situation of expensive engines and are clumsily taking a U-Turn.
I say clumsily because they are throwing out most of their good policies to try to make the Cheap engine idea work. For instance, the FIA are ditching their green policy of cleaner F1 and low fuel consumption. And they are likely to scrap their safety policy and return to refuel at pit stops. Just to name a few. This battle is one that would rumble into the 2016 and may produce some interesting controversy.

The issue at the core of this is one that has been present for a long time. Lack of a long term vision for F1 and direction. The teams and the FIA attempted to address this with the introduction of the V6 hybrid engines and I personally think it was a great approach. The problem really has been reach from lack of a holistic perspective as to the impact this has on the entire grid e.g. the Engine manufacturers had their say and all came to an agreement but no one took cost into acocunt for customer teams e.g. Sauber, Force India whom would be paying for these engines. I'm sure that they would have asked the estimated cost of these units.

Mercedes, Ferrari et al, then went off and implemented a business model to govern these projects and in this BM they factored the R&D costs and, at the end, came up with a selling price of each unit. It is unrealistic for the FIA to expect them to lose 8 million on them then after factoring the selling cost into their Business model. The cost may currently be €20million and they expect them to pay just €12. €8 million loss? No way and Ferrari were 100% right to veto.

It's bad management coupled with a good vision that caused this. The idea was right, the implementation was wrong.

[N. Jones]

They are horrible. Just look around here. We used to have BIG TIME rows in these threads. Now everyone's gone...

[Nitrodaze]

They are horrible. Just look around here. We used to have BIG TIME rows in these threads. Now everyone's gone...

The big time rows are still very much going on in other threads. I just came from one.

[Nitrodaze]

The issue at the core of this is one that has been present for a long time. Lack of a long term vision for F1 and direction. The teams and the FIA attempted to address this with the introduction of the V6 hybrid engines and I personally think it was a great approach. The problem really has been reach from lack of a holistic perspective as to the impact this has on the entire grid e.g. the Engine manufacturers had their say and all came to an agreement but no one took cost into acocunt for customer teams e.g. Sauber, Force India whom would be paying for these engines. I'm sure that they would have asked the estimated cost of these units.

Mercedes, Ferrari et al, then went off and implemented a business model to govern these projects and in this BM they factored the R&D costs and, at the end, came up with a selling price of each unit. It is unrealistic for the FIA to expect them to lose 8 million on them then after factoring the selling cost into their Business model. The cost may currently be €20million and they expect them to pay just €12. €8 million loss? No way and Ferrari were 100% right to veto.

It's bad management coupled with a good vision that caused this. The idea was right, the implementation was wrong.

Great observation. There doesn't seem to be a clear direction other than the cheap engine initiative at the moment. And that is looking like a dead duck at this point. This happens to be one of the few things that the promoters and the FIA have a common view on. One would think that their combined force would bring about some level agreement among the teams and the manufacturing teams in particular.

Like you say, a holistic approach is required and the FIA has to do a better job this time round to find a middle ground. It is a test of Jean Todt's presidency to get this right as the hybrid idea was his baby to start with. If you ask me, the promoters and the FIA seem abit lost and aloft on this matter of finding a new better direction for F1. The process of reigniting the F1 fire or spirit is in motion but moving against it own inertia. This remains a very interesting topic for the foreseeable future.

[N. Jones]

Yes but there were many more people on this forum when I started in 2004 then there are today.

[Nitrodaze]

It seems the FIA are backing down, but only on the premise that the manufacturer teams provide €12 million engines to the smaller teams. What these €12 million engines are going to look like, is yet to be clarified. One thing is certain, the manufacturers are not going to provide cheap engines that is faster than their more expensive hybrid engines. A fair situation may appear to be the original proposition of having a 3rd party develop these cheap engines. OR have a combination of 3rd parties and the Manufacturer teams to produce these cheap engines so that the smaller teams can buy the best cheap engine on the market.

The €12 million engine idea only works if there is some competition among suppliers and supply is not exclusive to the manufacturer teams to produce these engines.

Clarity on the characteristics of the rules governing the two types of engine powered cars is also paramount to not inadvertently produce a 2 tier F1 fomula. F1 is emulating MotoGP, they have to get it right and do as well as MotoGP has managed at least.

[The Black Knight]

Yes but there were many more people on this forum when I started in 2004 then there are today.

I don't think that's to do with F1 to be honest. Seems that this forum has been quiet for a while now. I'm not sure of the reason for it but there seems to have been a mass exodus of users at the one time about three years ago. It's been getting quieter and quieter since then and now on the F1 forum there are only 10-15 regular posters now.

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't think that's to do with F1 to be honest. Seems that this forum has been quiet for a while now. I'm not sure of the reason for it but there seems to have been a mass exodus of users at the one time about three years ago. It's been getting quieter and quieter since then and now on the F1 forum there are only 10-15 regular posters now.

The same thing has happened on every forum that I've been on for any length of time. One site allows users on Facebook to post - and those are some of the absolute dumbest posts that I have ever read (really!). But it seems that more than a few of the members here have wandered into that great intellectual wasteland, known as Facebook, and don't post here as much.

As an aside, I've always had to subscribe to pay channels to watch F1. But for those who are new to that, I think that has a lot to do with viewership losses too. And I'd say that the people who have been "priced out" probably aren't commenting as much on something that they're not watching as much. Me, I'll watch until the day that I die... or the series dies. If I ever suffer financial ruin and one of you sees a story about a guy in a homeless shelter who is guarding the TV set with a tire iron, so that he can watch F1 in peace... you'll know what became of me.