Where does Nico Rosberg go from here?

[Nitrodaze]

Being on the inside does not make you the owner of the corner .
But Lewis clearly believes it does .
Hamilton clearly knew Rosberg was beside him .
He stated he knew that Nico had more grip where he was running , and clearly made the decision to stay with the other car knowing he would force Nico wide on that trajectory .
He did , hitting him in the process .
It was the same move as the last time , where he again had slid wide forcing his team mate off .

Even Lewis , himself , said that he knew there would be differing opinions on the move but didn't care because he'd won .

Kimi's move last race was much the same , where he just assumed the other guy would back out .
He got penalized and is now confused .
We didn't get to see the moves , but he was upset with Max's move(s) based on his penalty the previous race .

You must leave room .
If one of our resident anoraks could dig up the actual rule regarding "the squeeze" , I would be grateful .

OK Look at it from another perspective. If it was Alonso or Vettel in Hamilton's position what do you think they would do?
I would bet my last dollar on them doing what it takes to get ahead after the corner. This, l guarantee you, would include running Rosberg off the track. This is racing, not a popularity contest. What you saw there was what separates the great drivers from the rest.

If look at the advantages of the relative positions of both driver as they approached the apex of the corner and then through the corner, you would see that Rosbergs positioning was increasingly becoming weaker as they got to the apex. But he had over-committed, hence had no choice but go through the corner with the hope of getting a better drive out of the corner, but doing so knowing his position was increasingly at risk of being vulnerable to the Redbull behind.

I think in the damp conditions of Austin, a tighter line through the corner would have been problematic for Hamilton and may have cost him more than a loss of one position. The wider path was the optimum path through that corner. As it went, that incident had very little bearing on the outcome of the race. This is not a Hamilton thing, any driver worth anything, in Hamilton's position would have done exactly the same thing. Be it Alonso, Vettel or Ricciado. It is simply racing.

[Bagwan]

I Think Kimi will put up a fight next time, ehhh, Max. Please Nico, don´t hold your hand up. And, there was a smirk little smile on Wolf and Laudas faces right after the first corner incident.

http://planetf1.com/news/raikkonen-c...clarification/

That's it , Mia .
He never says much but asks the right questions here .

Does being on the inside give one the right to the corner ?
Do you need to leave space ?
Are you allowed to shove someone up the curbs ?

[Nitrodaze]

Not that I'd claim to understand Hamilton's psyche, but who is his idol? Senna. The same guy who b!tch slapped Eddie Irvine and put a finger in a young Michael Schumacher's face to establish an alpha male dominance. And who brought Lewis over to Mercedes and has been his mentor while there? King Rat, Niki Lauda - another dominant alpha male type. How has Hamilton always treated teammates who were (perceived) threats to him, even in junior formulas? Not kindly - even if they were a double world champion. Everything about him says "black hat". He even tends to sport the black Mercedes cap after the races. I think that's just who he is. But I don't think of Lewis as a true alpha male, dominant type. He seems more passive aggressive. Unlike Lauda and Senna, he's not an "in your face" kinda guy... more a sucker punch kinda guy - more like Vettel, IMO. But he's only out to win and takes no prisoners. I don't see much difference between Hamilton and Vettel, personality wise (on track).

Thinking back about the world champions over the past 25-30 years or so, I can think of only three who seemed to fit the mold of "nice guys": Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen and Jenson Button. To varying degrees, all of the rest of them had some degree of a-hole about them. Piquet, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel... For better or worse, the days of the gentleman driver in F1 seem to be behind us. I think Lewis' disrespectful attitude toward Rosberg is simply a reflection of that, plus who he has idolized and what gets him what he wants. He doesn't see Nico as an equal by any means. And now, I don't think Nico sees Nico as an equal - which is what Hamilton wants. That's just like how Vettel wanted it with Webber.

The only current driver that I can think of who could probably put up with Hamilton and not be sucked into his psychological games... and even win a psychological war against him: Daniel Ricciardo. He's a real life version of Bugs Bunny. If Lewis had tossed that cap to him, he'd have probably put it on backwards, leapt up, done the cabbage patch dance and kissed Lewis on the cheek... while telling him that he better savor #3, cause he would be wearing the crown next year. But Nico? No, by his reaction, it's clear that Lewis has now taken up residence inside his head. And Lewis is not a good tenant to have living inside one's head - just like his idol and mentor weren't.

Some people think it is ok to use color codes to define situations. Black hat for badies and white hat for goodies. I personally think this sort of thing is a subtle way of doing racism. Especially when the person who is subject of the discussion happen to be what some people call black.

We are taliking about racing. And those that become world champions do not take prisoners. You would see that in Micheal Schumacher who was the ultimate Red Hat, or Vettel who was the most successful Blue Hat to date or Alonso who was a Renault's most successful Yellow Hat.
I don't remember anyone calling these guy's black hats when they were dominating their teammates and the rest of the field.

This is racing, sometimes there are tough moments and purely ecstatic moments. Austin delivered both in bucket loads.

[Bagwan]

OK Look at it from another perspective. If it was Alonso or Vettel in Hamilton's position what do you think they would do?
I would bet my last dollar on them doing what it takes to get ahead after the corner. This, l guarantee you, would include running Rosberg off the track. This is racing, not a popularity contest. What you saw there was what separates the great drivers from the rest.

If look at the advantages of the relative positions of both driver as they approached the apex of the corner and then through the corner, you would see that Rosbergs positioning was increasingly becoming weaker as they got to the apex. But he had over-committed, hence had no choice but go through the corner with the hope of getting a better drive out of the corner, but doing so knowing his position was increasingly at risk of being vulnerable to the Redbull behind.

I think in the damp conditions of Austin, a tighter line through the corner would have been problematic for Hamilton and may have cost him more than a loss of one position. The wider path was the optimum path through that corner. As it went, that incident had very little bearing on the outcome of the race. This is not a Hamilton thing, any driver worth anything, in Hamilton's position would have done exactly the same thing. Be it Alonso, Vettel or Ricciado. It is simply racing.

If you see the other guy braking longer , you can let him overspeed wide and try to get him inside .
If you are right beside him , and you know you have both the wider trajectory , and the grippier line , you know he cannot run through the corner at your speed , or he will slide into you .
It's kinda basic , the idea that you want to avoid other cars on track , as these machines are pretty fragile , and if you know (as Lewis said he did) the other guy is on the grippier line , and right beside you , you must be aware that you are likely going to hit him if you don't slow a little , to keep a tighter line , leaving space .
Lewis , as I see it , never had any intention of leaving that required space .

You have to trust the guy in the other car at the speeds they drive .

The way it looks to me is that every time Nico sees this behavior , and sees it essentially unpunished , it lets a little more air out of his balloon .


Is it simply racing ?
That's what Kimi wants to know , too .

And , hey , I guess if it's clarified and I'm told it's just racing , then fair play to Lewis , and congratulations on a hard fought championship , by all means .

[Bagwan]

Some people think it is ok to use color codes to define situations. Black hat for badies and white hat for goodies. I personally think this sort of thing is a subtle way of doing racism. Especially when the person who is subject of the discussion happen to be what some people call black.

We are taliking about racing. And those that become world champions do not take prisoners. You would see that in Micheal Schumacher who was the ultimate Red Hat, or Vettel who was the most successful Blue Hat to date or Alonso who was a Renault's most successful Yellow Hat.
I don't remember anyone calling these guy's black hats when they were dominating their teammates and the rest of the field.

This is racing, sometimes there are tough moments and purely ecstatic moments. Austin delivered both in bucket loads.

No , no , no .
I brought up the black hat here , and it was a stetson .

And , there wasn't any hint of racism in my intentions with it .

A black hat looks cooler , but gets hotter in the sun .
But , if you're trying to do some rustlin' after dark , yer gonna be spotted in that white one , and y'all might git it dirty as well , pardner .
Black hats is always gittin' away with stuff .

[Nitrodaze]

No , no , no .
I brought up the black hat here , and it was a stetson .

And , there wasn't any hint of racism in my intentions with it .

A black hat looks cooler , but gets hotter in the sun .
But , if you're trying to do some rustlin' after dark , yer gonna be spotted in that white one , and y'all might git it dirty as well , pardner .
Black hats is always gittin' away with stuff .

Glad to see your response as did not peg you to be a racist in any way. And l apologize if my comment appear to you to suggest otherwise.

[Bagwan]

Glad to see your response as did not peg you to be a racist in any way. And l apologize if my comment appear to you to suggest otherwise.

All cool , dude .

[Bagwan]

"There are internal rules in our team and I kept to those rules. Lewis did not. He went much too far."

There are rules , and then there are rules designed specifically to prevent one driver going much too far .

[Nitrodaze]

If you see the other guy braking longer , you can let him overspeed wide and try to get him inside .
If you are right beside him , and you know you have both the wider trajectory , and the grippier line , you know he cannot run through the corner at your speed , or he will slide into you .
It's kinda basic , the idea that you want to avoid other cars on track , as these machines are pretty fragile , and if you know (as Lewis said he did) the other guy is on the grippier line , and right beside you , you must be aware that you are likely going to hit him if you don't slow a little , to keep a tighter line , leaving space .
Lewis , as I see it , never had any intention of leaving that required space .

You have to trust the guy in the other car at the speeds they drive .

The way it looks to me is that every time Nico sees this behavior , and sees it essentially unpunished , it lets a little more air out of his balloon .


Is it simply racing ?
That's what Kimi wants to know , too .

And , hey , I guess if it's clarified and I'm told it's just racing , then fair play to Lewis , and congratulations on a hard fought championship , by all means .

I took another couple of looks at the start and l have to agree that it was a tough elbowing maneuver by Hamilton. But my point was that Rosberg put himself in that position by having a bad start which put Hamilton along side him before the approach to the corner. Rosberg had lost the advantage of starting at pole at that point. From then on it was sheer desperation to hang on to get something out the apex of the corner and Hamilton could see the loss of advantage and the position was there for the taking.

You have to watch it again and look at Kyvat's line into the corner. Kyvat's line is closer to the proper line through the corner, but it is the slower line as he initially gained advantage on his teammate who took the wider line going into the corner but lost the advantage coming out of the corner. But he got a better drive through the next corner to pass Ricciado.

Hence l concede that Hamilton could have left more room for Rosberg, but at the expense of losing the advantage coming out of the corner. This is the junction where the racing instinct of champions kick in. For the rest of my explanation, l would swap in Alonso for Hamilton.
So Alonso finds himself at the apex of the corner alongside his teammate and he knows he had gained advantage into the corner by a nose. He knew he could give his teammate a little more room, but his analysis tells him that such a move would hand over the advantage to his teammate coming out of the corner and possibly expose him to attack from behind.
What would Alonso do in this circumstances where there was a race win and possibly clinching world title was on the cards?

The racer in Alonso would do what it takes to get ahead coming out of that corner. So would Vettel, Schumacher, Lauder, Senna, Prost etc. THIS MY FRIENDS IS RACING plain and simple. Not a tea party or a friendly game of cards.

[Bagwan]

I took another couple of looks at the start and l have to agree that it was a tough elbowing maneuver by Hamilton. But my point was that Rosberg put himself in that position by having a bad start which put Hamilton along side him before the approach to the corner. Rosberg had lost the advantage of starting at pole at that point. From then on it was sheer desperation to hang on to get something out the apex of the corner and Hamilton could see the loss of advantage and the position was there for the taking.

You have to watch it again and look at Kyvat's line into the corner. Kyvat's line is closer to the proper line through the corner, but it is the slower line as he initially gained advantage on his teammate who took the wider line going into the corner but lost the advantage coming out of the corner. But he got a better drive through the next corner to pass Ricciado.

Hence l concede that Hamilton could have left more room for Rosberg, but at the expense of losing the advantage coming out of the corner. This is the junction where the racing instinct of champions kick in. For the rest of my explanation, l would swap in Alonso for Hamilton.
So Alonso finds himself at the apex of the corner alongside his teammate and he knows he had gained advantage into the corner by a nose. He knew he could give his teammate a little more room, but his analysis tells him that such a move would hand over the advantage to his teammate coming out of the corner and possibly expose him to attack from behind.
What would Alonso do in this circumstances where there was a race win and possibly clinching world title was on the cards?

The racer in Alonso would do what it takes to get ahead coming out of that corner. So would Vettel, Schumacher, Lauder, Senna, Prost etc. THIS MY FRIENDS IS RACING plain and simple. Not a tea party or a friendly game of cards.

I understand the need to be first , and how bad they want it .

Certainly , Nico lost the pole advantage on the way to the corner , but he was right there with Lewis on entry .

You have two choices at that point , one to brake early and get him coming out , and the other , to stay outside , forcing him to brake early , knowing that if he didn't , he would touch .
I'm pretty sure Nico knew he would slide into him , as he had in the second corner at Suzuka , but he had to keep his line outside as the Bulls were right behind , waiting to pounce .
He was forced to believe his team mate would follow both the rules of the series and the specifically designed rules within his own team .

He was on the better trajectory , and on the grippier part of the track , but got rudely punted . It's as simple as that .


Nico had the measure of Lewis this last weekend , except for that one mistake , despite having to deal with the first corner punk .

I'm sad it's over , especially this way .