[WRC] News & rumours (part III)

[Eli]

http://www.maxrally.com/2015/10/16/t...eams-the-dream

[liposh]

Todt is fascinating man. He is saying so many words without telling anything. May I learn it somewhere?

[dimviii]

WRC drivers open to boycotting stages after Australia night furore

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...medium=twitter

[itix]

Capito: "the night stage doesn't add anything but risk.
The spectators don't see anything"

What? Sorry Capito, have you ever been at a night stage? I have and it is lovely. Serioiusly, there is nothing more spectacular than standing there in the night or early morning in the darkness, waiting for the cars to come...

...and if you can see far from where you are standing you can see the headlights as they snake their way through the stage, it is LOVELY! There should be a lot more night stages, and if you have problems getting good shots, send up a drone with a go pro or whatever, I can guarantee it will be lovely shots of the headlights snaking through the stage! Not to mention tarmac rallies in the dark when they cook their brakes and the discs start glowing in the dark... that is a sight to behold.

You say a lot of crap in the media Capito, but his has to earn some form of award.

[tomhlord]

Capito: "the night stage doesn't add anything but risk.
The spectators don't see anything"

What? Sorry Capito, have you ever been at a night stage? I have and it is lovely. Serioiusly, there is nothing more spectacular than standing there in the night or early morning in the darkness, waiting for the cars to come...

...and if you can see far from where you are standing you can see the headlights as they snake their way through the stage, it is LOVELY! There should be a lot more night stages, and if you have problems getting good shots, send up a drone with a go pro or whatever, I can guarantee it will be lovely shots of the headlights snaking through the stage! Not to mention tarmac rallies in the dark when they cook their brakes and the discs start glowing in the dark... that is a sight to behold.

You say a lot of crap in the media Capito, but his has to earn some form of award.

A night stage on tarmac, or snow, I agree. A night stage on a dry gravel event...not so sure.

[Simmi]

There are night stages with atmosphere:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJyZZoMdApo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Bs0g7X7h8

We know this.

But I don't really think that's the point. Being constantly asked about this pointless Australia stage is leading people to make sweeping generalizations which I'm not sure they really mean. I think this year we've seen some interesting test cases as to the mentality of the 2015 WRC service park. If rallying is wanting to go back to its roots even slightly it is going to have to drag this crop of participants and team principals kicking and screaming.

Some things are worth arguing about and fighting for. I don't think dry gravel night stages are one of them. They aren't worth the hassle. Just get rid and find other ways to make your rally more interesting.

[Lundefaret]

"Why dont they just slow down?" (A question from my girlfriend)

I told my partner about this discussion, and the drivers complaining about the dust and the danger. Her answer was "why dont they just slow down?" (She is a Paramedic, driving an Ambulance for a living.)
Sorry Meeke, Ogier, Neuville and You others - I really didn't have any good answer to that...

A mother going to pick up her children would drive in dust and darkness, so why not the worlds best drivers?
And if we start to listen to the drivers and Capito now, where would this path lead us?
Where should we draw the line of what is acceptable danger?
And who should decide?

Look at Corsica and that butt clenching hairpin we have discussed here on this forum. The non-rally people I have showed it to are standing gobsmacked with jaws on their knees, because of the inherent danger and risk.
Rolling backwards off that hill would lead to a very bad accident, possibly lethal.
Should corners like that be outlawed?

What about the threes lining the stages in Finland?
As the stages in Corsica they have both injured and killed people.
Should we start cutting the threes down, creating safety zones?
What about heavy fog?
Heavy rain?
Heavy snow?
Where should one draw the line?

Capito says: "If something is not safe then I won't let out drivers out"

Well, not safe?
Rallying is not safe - nor should it be completely safe.
Its part of the attraction and the spectacle.
But its a difference to being safe for the spectators, drivers or cars.

The three different safety aspects as I see it:

Nr 1: The spectators: The safety of the spectators is by far the most important safety aspect.

Nr 2: The cars: Safety in the cars are the second most important safety factor. (This is why I want central seating position, with the codriver behind the driver, like in a Yamaha OX99-11, or a Rocket (Gordon Murray). (But safety off the cars, not that important.)

Nr 3: The rallies: The rallies should be safe for the spectators, but not for the cars. But the cars should protect the drivers.

Off course I understand that there are some special circumstances. Heavy dust, night, no wind, too short intervals between the cars, and I also accept that this one stage could be discussed. But these drivers are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, on and in every condition. So where should You draw the line?

In the Norwegian winter we can get some very extreme driving conditions. A combination of heavy, wet snow, darkness and fog is maybe the most extreme. So what do the mother driving 30 km to the danceclass to pick up her children do?
Does she contact the autorities demanding all traffic to be shut down?
Answer: No.
Does she phone here kids telling them that they have to spend the night at the dance hall because she thinks its to dangerous to drive?
Answer: No.

With the extra risk of meeting large trucks, of having no codriver that can yell out pace notes, with no four wheel drive or high grip tires, with no roll cage, helmet or other safety protection, she takes on the conditions at hand, and uses the very same tools that the WRC drivers have at hand to get trough them:They are called a brake- and an accelerator pedal.

If the worlds supposedly best and toughest drivers can't drive trough some Australian dust with out being a danger to them self because, they are not able to adjust their speed accordingly, then: "Huston we have a problem."

The only legit reason for not running that stage is the unfair advantage to the first on the road. But the advantage or disadvantage of running position can never be totally fair in rallying.

Feeling safe vs. being safe.

What is this "dust gate" about?
Its about the drivers feelings.
Feeling uncertain.
Feeling scared.

But the drivers - and Capito - should know that there is a HUGE difference between perceived danger and actual danger.

Alone in the woods at night in the dark. Its very easy to feel unsafe. You dont see much, but You hear noises. Whats out there?
Will it hurt me?
But its few places where You are more safe than out in the woods at night in the dark.

Out on the pub with Your best friend on Saturday night. Feeling safe and certain. There are few times during the week - being in traffic maybe the only one for most people - that are more dangerous.

I understand that the drivers feel unsafe hurtling into the unknown, dust taking away almost all line of sight, on this stage in Australia. But is it an increase in precieved danger or actual danger?

One have to look at the statistics to find out if this stage lead to an increase in crashes, injuries or deaths,

Perceived danger on tarmac.
Rallying on tarmac is statistically the most dangerous thing rally drivers do. And the better the conditions (higher grip), the more dangerous it is for the drivers and spectators.
So what do the drivers cry out for?
Tires with less grip on dry tarmac?
No..
They cry out for tires with more grip on wet tarmac.

You can argue that there is a need for monsoon tires to try prevent aquaplaning, but what would happen?
If the conditions are bad enough there is always a chance of aquaplaning, and with better tires You raise the treshold for that happening - but You also raise the speed for when its happening. Have the drivers really thought this trough?

Rallying always needs to develop safety. And these are the most pressing matters:

First: A really good plan towards spectator safety needs to be made, and executed - whit out taking away to much pleasure for the rally spectators.

Second: There needs to be a big discussion on tarmac rallying. How could it be made safer, both for spectators and drivers. One easy solution is to take away grip. This lowers the difference in grip in and outside the line/road, and also lowers the speeds, and the abruptness of when You loose grip.
Example: If all tarmac rallies where run on gravel wheels, they would be much safer.

Thirdly: Driver safety should be addressed. There are two aspects that are most pressing:
A) Corner speed of the cars.
High corner speeds leads to higher risk. This can be lowered with decreasing grip levels, both by limiting tires, suspension (mechanical grip) and aerodynamics. In the most extreme You could have RWD cars with limits on tires and suspension (but at the same time opening for increase in engine and aerodynamics to keep up the spectacle)
B) Driver occupant safety. The positioning of the seats so close to the side of the rally car could be delt with by seating the driver and codriver in a central driving position with the drivers first and codriver behind the driver.

So my question to all the WRC-drivers:
So why dont You just slow down?

[AndyRAC]

Agree! Putting night stages in a dry gravel event is asking for trouble. Put them in events were they will add something; snow, Tarmac, wet wintry gravel events.

I remember being at the hairpin in Hafren on the RAC Rally 1995 for the 2nd run through; it was dark, but the atmosphere was electric.Too many of the current WRC have forgotten, or don't know what made the sport so great - and prefer the watered down version we currently have.

[tommeke_B]

Great post @Lundefaret. Although I think it's unrealistic to limit grip on tarmac too much. I think that's what's acceptable has already happened, with the single-thread tyres. Even if you would allow only the type of tyres that are street-legal, the grip level would still be quite high.

About the dust-thing... In Belgium (Sezoens Rally) some very big (one almost fatal) accident happened some years ago. It was a stage with laps, with some gravel parts. Imagine a 1,5km long straight on gravel with heavy braking for a slow corner after, another car passed 20s before him so it was full of thick dust. The driver didn't see where he was (obviously) and was braking way too late for a slower corner, he hitted a large tree when going off. Could he brake too late without dust? Yes. Could he make a mistake that big?.. So yes, it adds danger, the driver thought he had a big margin but was just wrong. Maybe an even bigger danger comes after that, slowing the car that comes after, if the crashed car is still on the road... Slowing down isn't an option for WRC drivers, you will lose so much seconds that you can't recover it, no matter how long the event is. Of all current WRC drivers, I don't think anyone would slow down for dust. Maybe dust isn't the real problem for drivers, I think the problem is that someone else could do the stage without dust. If you have fog, it's there for everyone until it clears up, that's something different...

[stefanvv]

@Lundefaret, while I completely agree with Your post, this is Rally and that means more or less "drivers can jump into a volcano and spring up from it without a scratch", so Rally is to handle the most difficult conditions You can possibly meet on the way and survive at the end. In the beginning it has been just marathon with not very reliable vehicles.
Now times are different, the spectators want more speed, more sideways, more noise, etc, etc. Everything (well may be without the noise) is unsafe. So I kind of agree with Capito - night stage in the dust doesn't really bring nothing for anybody, especially for (their Majesty) the spectators, and I know what a night stage is about.... noise, lights and the rest Rally brings....