The new FIA WRC-car concept 2017

[Mirek]

1) The 1,6T format on the basis that it is production relevant is utter BS. Why should the engine be relevant when nothing of the rest of the car is? Have You ever seen the road car basis of a modern rallycar (read: Polo, DS3, Fiesta etc) with 4WD, adjustable McPherson coilovers on each end with HUGE travel, advanced aerodynamics, etc?

Simply because of marketing. 95% of buyers don't have a clue about any technical stuff and they do believe the marketing phrases. Times have changed and nowadays people aren't interested in how stuff works. You need to get away from looking on things by a sight of a rally geek. Guys like You make tiny percentage of car buyers. To understand why the car makers want what they want You need to look on things from their point of view. Fact is that it is the car makers and always will be who have the biggest word in this game. This will not change because You or me want something else.

A WRC engine serves two purposes, and two only:
1) Propulsion (in generous amounts, i.e. 500hp+)
2) A sound that makes young boys scream in excitement, babys cry, and women throw their nickers at the cars. Its should be loud and sexy. (110db and high revs)

There is a valid law which sets the noise and pollution limits for the simple reason that rallying takes place on public roads. And it's not about road sections. The stages pass through villages and towns as well. Especially in the central Europe it is impossible to make the stage without going through a populated areas. As such rallying is fully dependent on tollerance of the non-rally majority. I can imagine You don't face problems with that in Norway but please take into account that it is very very real problem in heavily populated European mainland. It's nothing special when the stage is not allowed to pass somewhere because some locals don't want that. They have various reasons. They think it's noisy, dangerous, they don't like having spectators in front of their house, don't want the road to be closed or whatever. To play on someone else's playground You need to find compromise. There's no other way.

There have been great sounding NA engines, Turbod engines, Compressors engines, turbod AND compressord engines, fours, fives, sixes and eights, Vs, longditudals, and boxers.
The common referrers are high revs (i.e. cut out the restrictors, or at least make them big) and a generous sound system (not sound deadening system).

Yes, of course but what have You tried to say by that?

There is no problem making an engine/exhaust that has a road mode (for homologation) and a stage mode.

As I already said. It's not about road sections. Stages pass through populated areas as well. You can't expect little babies, elderly women or nature-lowing people to understand why rally needs more noise exactly in front of their house on Sunday morning. It's similar like when a techno party comes to Your place. It's something You won't like and understand and it will most likely make You mad. Take into account that there is a lot of poeple who think about rallying in the same way.

[Burg]

The Kelsey MC2 is road legal and has passed noise tests, not sure how, but it did. Although it may not be what car marketers want, the fans love it. And surely that has to count for something.

[Mirek]

Don't get me wrong, I personally do agree with You.

[Lundefaret]

Simply because of marketing. 95% of buyers don't have a clue about any technical stuff and they do believe the marketing phrases. Times have changed and nowadays people aren't interested in how stuff works. You need to get away from looking on things by a sight of a rally geek. Guys like You make tiny percentage of car buyers. To understand why the car makers want what they want You need to look on things from their point of view. Fact is that it is the car makers and always will be who have the biggest word in this game. This will not change because You or me want something else.



There is a valid law which sets the noise and pollution limits for the simple reason that rallying takes place on public roads. And it's not about road sections. The stages pass through villages and towns as well. Especially in the central Europe it is impossible to make the stage without going through a populated areas. As such rallying is fully dependent on tollerance of the non-rally majority. I can imagine You don't face problems with that in Norway but please take into account that it is very very real problem in heavily populated European mainland. It's nothing special when the stage is not allowed to pass somewhere because some locals don't want that. They have various reasons. They think it's noisy, dangerous, they don't like having spectators in front of their house, don't want the road to be closed or whatever. To play on someone else's playground You need to find compromise. There's no other way.



Yes, of course but what have You tried to say by that?



As I already said. It's not about road sections. Stages pass through populated areas as well. You can't expect little babies, elderly women or nature-lowing people to understand why rally needs more noise exactly in front of their house on Sunday morning. It's similar like when a techno party comes to Your place. It's something You won't like and understand and it will most likely make You mad. Take into account that there is a lot of poeple who think about rallying in the same way.

You are forgetting one HUGE aspect. If WRC should be a place for manufacturers to spend their marketing dollars, it has to gather large crowds both on TV and on the stages. If You gather these crowds, You make money for the manufacturer, the TV-rights holders, and the rally organizers, and the locals. Then aspects like sound etc becomes less of an object, because it is created a demand for the show, and vendors bid against each others to be a part of the spectacle.

The WRC has been in a downwards spiral since 2004. And there are multiple reasons. Here are some:
1) The combination of Citroën, Michelin and Loeb was unbeatable, which made the show the worst a show can be: predictable. A quote reads that sport should be a show with an unknown ending.
2) The promotors never delivered on their promises of TV-covarage, including live scheduling etc.
3) The promotors never took full advantage of the great possibilities opened with the boom in rally gaming, making it theoretically possible for them to host rallies for the gamers where they could compete against the real drivers on the same stages in real time. Gaming was bringing rallying out to the masses.
4) The promotor threating dumbing down their communication towards the fans (like the WRC magazine, WRC.com etc) which neither attracts the true fans (because its nothing to learn) and not new fans because the simplified image isn't sexy. Look to NASCAR for a much better way off doing this.
5) Tire breakthroughs, Aerodynamical break troughs with really efficient wings and splitters and undertarys, technical breakthroughs like advanced differentials and driving break troughs made the cars/drivers less spectacular to watch.
6) The rallies them selves becoming Mickey Mouse events that are much more homogeneous, and takes away a lot from the show (running the same stages several times etc, no more night driving), and taking away much of the aspect of bringing rally to the people. All of this contributing to the rally itself covering a much smaller region, which lower the geographical area of positive economical input. Again loosing a lot of political benevolence with again makes the rallies more difficult to host, and the local politicians of the neighboring regions more strict towards noise etc.
7) The cars getting expensive to the extreme, in a combination of lower PR value, making for lower ROI on the marketing money spent, which again results in manufacturers walking out.


If the show is valuable enough cities and communities will even tear down buildings and erect new ones if You tell them to. They will even build new roads. I can promise You that the only reason sound is a "problem" is that WRC is not valuable enough right now as a show.
Compare it to what communities and countries are willing to do to host the Olympic games or the World Soccer Championship.

And the new proposed regulation changes will not change a darn thing. It is anal to the extreme to think that a few millimeters here and an active diff there will make any big difference on the future of rallying.

To hunt down the spirit og the WRC You need to find the legendary stories of the battles between brave men (and a very brave woman) and their monstrous machines. And then create events that are hugely spectacular showing of great feats on all surfaces, in all weathers, in all conditions, in all parts of the globe. This is what rally was built on, and this is what its future should include.

Make each rally a combination of the LeMans 24H, the Dakar, and the Monte Carlo rally. Make them stand out. Taking away events to make each event more distinct and a better show, is better than adding to similar events.
Make it so its easy to tell the incredible stories. Reach out to the fans with social media, TV, and the rally it self, so that they will pass on the great stories.
Make the cars cheaper to build and run, to allow for more manufacturers and more drivers.
Recruit drivers because of talent, not fat wallets.
Take away mechanical grip, take away aerodynamical grip, add power, sound and looks, make the cars beasts that us mere mortals would not be capable of running. Make it visibly matter that the surface changes, not as now where the cars have almost the same grip level wherever they go.
Take Richard Burns rally, modernize it, and make it the official game, and give the fans a possibility of battling the drivers on the Power Stage.
Etc etc.

Rally has with out a doubt been the most exiting and extreme motorsport in the world, its time to make it that again.

[Jack4688`]

Take Richard Burns rally, modernize it, and make it the official game.

Have you played DiRT Rally? Easily the best rallying game since RBR. It just needs time for more content to be available.

[Jack4688`]

I agree with both what Mirek and Lundefaret say, on the one hand there needs to remain some link between what the manufacturers do day to day and some social responsibility but on the other hand the WRC needs to genuinely set pulses racing, not this bullshit about wider arches, longer bumper extensions, larger turbo restrictors and bigger rear wings.

The way I see it the WRC can do two things:

a) remain sensible, as it is now, and with the 2017 rule changes add 5% to the technical package in most areas and hope to keep the manufacturers involved and lose a little of the 'boring'.

b) go risky, very risky, and make the championship absolutely mental, that's the only way it'll be as popular as in the 80s-90s.

I know it's completely unreasonable to expect/hope that they will make the WRC go nuts but in the end it's all about publicity right? I doubt you'd get more publicity than some bonkers 2.5 litre 4/5/6/Rotary engines making orgasmic noise and coming from sports cars by just turning the current ShoppingTrolley+ into ShoppingTrolley++

Maybe I'm looking for something that isn't WRC but they need to take a bigger risk, even if it's just one aspect of the technical rules, to get petrolheads interested again. It's the World Rally Championship, you can't tell me interest from petrolheads isn't important. And by petrolheads I make distinction from car geeks - I consider myself both but being a car geek is just taking interest in the details behind cars and their interesting stories. A petrolhead is what I consider any person who can appreciate something cool about a car, whether it's the way it looks, sounds or belts round a corner - and there are plenty of those type of people in the world.

Maybe the 2017 rule changes will do that, but I'm not convinced. It'll just be maybe a few % better.

[Mirek]

You are forgetting one HUGE aspect. If WRC should be a place for manufacturers to spend their marketing dollars, it has to gather large crowds both on TV and on the stages. If You gather these crowds, You make money for the manufacturer, the TV-rights holders, and the rally organizers, and the locals. Then aspects like sound etc becomes less of an object, because it is created a demand for the show, and vendors bid against each others to be a part of the spectacle.

Dear Lundefaret, You forget the most important thing of all. Rallying is not WRC. WRC is just the pinacle of the sport but rallysport itself is much bigger thing. When You started about "perfect modern rallycar" I thought naturally that You mean something for rallying not for WRC only.

The WRC has been in a downwards spiral since 2004.

It was till few years ago but recently it isn't. Quite the opposite. Currently there are four of five biggest manufacturers in the world comitted in WRC and that has never happen in the history (I have already included Toyota). The times of two manufacturers are long gone. There is healthy support championship WRC2 with a level which has hardly ever any support class seen. Good luck in creating something better. Come on, enjoy the show a little bit and don't waste time on crying about something which will never happen. Or do You simply hate that Ogier and VW rule the show? Yes, they do but that happens. All motorsports have periods when one team rules the others, it's nothing new. Lancias in the early gr.A era, Mitsubishi with Makinen... how about Schumacher in F1, Rossi in MotoGP, Christensen in Le Mans, Peterhansel, Despres or Chagin in Dakar?

And there are multiple reasons. Here are some:
1) The combination of Citroën, Michelin and Loeb was unbeatable, which made the show the worst a show can be: predictable. A quote reads that sport should be a show with an unknown ending.

Or maybe the opposite? In any other sports people buy crazy expensive tickets to see the unbeatable icons. Why shall it be different with WRC than with athletics, boxing, F1, MotoGP, Dakar or skiing?

2) The promotors never delivered on their promises of TV-covarage, including live scheduling etc.

True

3) The promotors never took full advantage of the great possibilities opened with the boom in rally gaming, making it theoretically possible for them to host rallies for the gamers where they could compete against the real drivers on the same stages in real time. Gaming was bringing rallying out to the masses.

Maybe but I think that this point is a little overrated as it would attract mainly teenagers. I don't see thousands of people entering armies because they like playing WoT but maybe I'm wrong.

4) The promotor threating dumbing down their communication towards the fans (like the WRC magazine, WRC.com etc) which neither attracts the true fans (because its nothing to learn) and not new fans because the simplified image isn't sexy. Look to NASCAR for a much better way off doing this.

Well, I have to admit I don't know a single person who at least somehow follows NASCAR (me included). Some of my friends know something about MotoGP, F1 or WRC though. Maybe it's not as You think or maybe central Europe is different than Norway or I don't know.

5) Tire breakthroughs, Aerodynamical break troughs with really efficient wings and splitters and undertarys, technical breakthroughs like advanced differentials and driving break troughs made the cars/drivers less spectacular to watch.

True, however current WRC cars are filled with a lot of old-stylish (I would even say ancient) stuff such as no center diffs, simple clutchpack LSDs etc. Maybe it's just me but I don't see anything wrong with the spectacle current WRC cars bring. It was worse with previous generation of cars with more hi-tech stuff.

6) The rallies them selves becoming Mickey Mouse events that are much more homogeneous, and takes away a lot from the show (running the same stages several times etc, no more night driving), and taking away much of the aspect of bringing rally to the people. All of this contributing to the rally itself covering a much smaller region, which lower the geographical area of positive economical input. Again loosing a lot of political benevolence with again makes the rallies more difficult to host, and the local politicians of the neighboring regions more strict towards noise etc.

It's not 80' anymore. Population and especially traffic density is on entirely different level. You can do 1000 km long rally in Argentina, of course but in Germany or France? Hardly. But I do agree with the point that the events shall bring more diversity.

7) The cars getting expensive to the extreme, in a combination of lower PR value, making for lower ROI on the marketing money spent, which again results in manufacturers walking out.

Totally not true. WRC cars were more expensive 10 years a go (even in nominal numbers) and no manufacturers are walking away. In fact there are three new manufacturers in the sport and accidentally they are the two biggest in the world (VW and Toyota) and the fifth biggest and fastest growing in the world (Hyundai).

If the show is valuable enough cities and communities will even tear down buildings and erect new ones if You tell them to. They will even build new roads. I can promise You that the only reason sound is a "problem" is that WRC is not valuable enough right now as a show.
Compare it to what communities and countries are willing to do to host the Olympic games or the World Soccer Championship.

You can dream about rallying being something comparable to Olympic games but that's all You can do. Maybe You shall turn Your eyes back on the earth instead.

[Mirek]

And the new proposed regulation changes will not change a darn thing. It is anal to the extreme to think that a few millimeters here and an active diff there will make any big difference on the future of rallying.

Agree with that. I don't like the new regulations either.

To hunt down the spirit og the WRC You need to find the legendary stories of the battles between brave men (and a very brave woman) and their monstrous machines. And then create events that are hugely spectacular showing of great feats on all surfaces, in all weathers, in all conditions, in all parts of the globe. This is what rally was built on, and this is what its future should include.

I somehow don't believe it works for 21st century people.

Make each rally a combination of the LeMans 24H, the Dakar, and the Monte Carlo rally. Make them stand out. Taking away events to make each event more distinct and a better show, is better than adding to similar events.
Make it so its easy to tell the incredible stories. Reach out to the fans with social media, TV, and the rally it self, so that they will pass on the great stories.

Yeah, that sounds nice. It's harder to make it reality though.

Make the cars cheaper to build and run, to allow for more manufacturers and more drivers.

Please not again. You contradict Yourself. You can do whatever regulations but it will be always crazy expensive when the manufacturers will be involved. Why? Simply because they put in what it worth and the bigger the image of WRC is the more they spend. That's simple rule. The fact that VW spends something like 150 million Euros per WRC season shall tell You already that WRC has some value. Much bigger than what You think (at least it looks like that from Your posts).

Recruit drivers because of talent, not fat wallets.

A simple question... what connects Loeb, Ogier, Sordo, Neuville or Meeke? They came from talent-searching competitions such as French Peugeot cup, Belgian Fiesta Trophy and all of them did JWRC. You can't buy talent. None of the official manufacturer drivers in WRC is there due to his money. They are there because they can drive better than others. Please don't tell me that Loeb or Ogier were rich boys who bought their titles.

Take away mechanical grip, take away aerodynamical grip, add power, sound and looks, make the cars beasts that us mere mortals would not be capable of running. Make it visibly matter that the surface changes, not as now where the cars have almost the same grip level wherever they go.

I can see a lot of sideways action on current WRC events. I would say a lot more than in gr.A era where the cars were even unable to make a handbrake turn and despite that people somehow remember them as something extremely spectacular (just few days a go I watched a live TV stage from Portugal 94 and the only proper sideways driver there was Emil Triner with the little Favorit F2).

Take Richard Burns rally, modernize it, and make it the official game, and give the fans a possibility of battling the drivers on the Power Stage.

I have been an admin of rbronlineracing.cz for many years and I do agree that it's the best rally game ever. Still I know that the developer of RBR went bankrupt for a reason that nobody was buying the game because it was too difficult for majority of gamers. And it's also a reason why I don't play it anymore (for six years now) as I simply don't have time to test every day to be still beaten by some 12 years old boys by minutes...

Rally has with out a doubt been the most exiting and extreme motorsport in the world, its time to make it that again.

A little bit too big words. There are a lot more extreme kinds of motorsport and I strongly hope WRC will not go their way.

This incredible wall of text has 10385 characters. I think it's time to stop. Have a good night and please don't be angry if I don't answer anymore. It takes too much time and I have to do something else too...

[AndyRAC]

Have to say, Mirek has explained why we have the cars we have extremely well; the manufacturers pay for the show, they get what they want, sadly.

But, I do think what Lundefaret says is spot on. A WRC round should be a huge 'event'; not what we have had for the last 15 years - identikit events that are the same year after year. But, that is an old story, and teams, manufacturers & the promoter seem to prefer the status quo.

[stefanvv]

You are forgetting one HUGE aspect. If WRC should be a place for manufacturers to spend their marketing dollars, it has to gather large crowds both on TV and on the stages. If You gather these crowds, You make money for the manufacturer, the TV-rights holders, and the rally organizers, and the locals. Then aspects like sound etc becomes less of an object, because it is created a demand for the show, and vendors bid against each others to be a part of the spectacle.

The WRC has been in a downwards spiral since 2004. And there are multiple reasons. Here are some:
1) The combination of Citroën, Michelin and Loeb was unbeatable, which made the show the worst a show can be: predictable. A quote reads that sport should be a show with an unknown ending.
2) The promotors never delivered on their promises of TV-covarage, including live scheduling etc.
3) The promotors never took full advantage of the great possibilities opened with the boom in rally gaming, making it theoretically possible for them to host rallies for the gamers where they could compete against the real drivers on the same stages in real time. Gaming was bringing rallying out to the masses.
4) The promotor threating dumbing down their communication towards the fans (like the WRC magazine, WRC.com etc) which neither attracts the true fans (because its nothing to learn) and not new fans because the simplified image isn't sexy. Look to NASCAR for a much better way off doing this.
5) Tire breakthroughs, Aerodynamical break troughs with really efficient wings and splitters and undertarys, technical breakthroughs like advanced differentials and driving break troughs made the cars/drivers less spectacular to watch.
6) The rallies them selves becoming Mickey Mouse events that are much more homogeneous, and takes away a lot from the show (running the same stages several times etc, no more night driving), and taking away much of the aspect of bringing rally to the people. All of this contributing to the rally itself covering a much smaller region, which lower the geographical area of positive economical input. Again loosing a lot of political benevolence with again makes the rallies more difficult to host, and the local politicians of the neighboring regions more strict towards noise etc.
7) The cars getting expensive to the extreme, in a combination of lower PR value, making for lower ROI on the marketing money spent, which again results in manufacturers walking out.


If the show is valuable enough cities and communities will even tear down buildings and erect new ones if You tell them to. They will even build new roads. I can promise You that the only reason sound is a "problem" is that WRC is not valuable enough right now as a show.
Compare it to what communities and countries are willing to do to host the Olympic games or the World Soccer Championship.

And the new proposed regulation changes will not change a darn thing. It is anal to the extreme to think that a few millimeters here and an active diff there will make any big difference on the future of rallying.

To hunt down the spirit og the WRC You need to find the legendary stories of the battles between brave men (and a very brave woman) and their monstrous machines. And then create events that are hugely spectacular showing of great feats on all surfaces, in all weathers, in all conditions, in all parts of the globe. This is what rally was built on, and this is what its future should include.

Make each rally a combination of the LeMans 24H, the Dakar, and the Monte Carlo rally. Make them stand out. Taking away events to make each event more distinct and a better show, is better than adding to similar events.
Make it so its easy to tell the incredible stories. Reach out to the fans with social media, TV, and the rally it self, so that they will pass on the great stories.
Make the cars cheaper to build and run, to allow for more manufacturers and more drivers.
Recruit drivers because of talent, not fat wallets.
Take away mechanical grip, take away aerodynamical grip, add power, sound and looks, make the cars beasts that us mere mortals would not be capable of running. Make it visibly matter that the surface changes, not as now where the cars have almost the same grip level wherever they go.
Take Richard Burns rally, modernize it, and make it the official game, and give the fans a possibility of battling the drivers on the Power Stage.
Etc etc.

Rally has with out a doubt been the most exiting and extreme motorsport in the world, its time to make it that again.

As much as I like to agree with You, this sounds just a nice fairy tale. The real world is more like Mirek opposed to. There have been talks few years for 17' changes as some kind of revolution in the Rally sport, but appears as more like an slight upgrade to the current Rally cars. So I understand the disappointment, but as soon manufacturers are happy with it, so we should supposed to be. And recently WRC can be considered as manufacturers friendly, so we should be happy about this diversity. I also think like You in the way things should go, though some of technical aspects are a bit too much for me. Rally cars should be close to road cars in nature, but that appears to be too expensive for really high level tech. So the current cars I consider as a compromise between spectacle, rally geniality and costs.

Lets see what happens in 17' and what "upgrades" will finally be approved.

Returning back to Group B days, I really liked what AUDI had done with their cars, just tuned road Quattro road cars without any revolutionary construction changes as in 206, S4, MG. Group S eventually would change this though, but it never happened.