Guns Guns Guns, Now Paris!

[Rudy Tamasz]

Whilst no fan of guns, I think this case further highlights that religion of any type, particularly the abrahamic ones, have no place in modern society

When I hear statements like this from reasonable people, I always feel sorry for them as they missed something really important.

[Robinho]

When I hear statements like this from reasonable people, I always feel sorry for them as they missed something really important.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I was brought up in a Christian house, regularly attended church, have to some extent studied Judaism and Islam and nothing, absolutely nothing, indicates to me that it is anything more than collections of conservative morals organised under the banner of religion to control the masses and explain away the unexplained and the fears of humans when there was no other obvious alternatives. I see no positive outcome from any religion, apart from maybe the social and cultural aspects, which are mostly collected from other historical sources in any case. I don't need religion to have morals. I don't need religion to be charitable. I don't need religion to know not to kill. I don't need religion to live humans or anything else. There are no gods, and if I'm wrong and there is, I want nothing to do with a omnipresent creator that allows what it has, whilst demanding blind faith in a sick master plan. God only exists in the minds of believers. The world is a beautiful, incredible, scary, dangerous and wholly insignificant dot in a universe that is almost impossible to comprehend.

[gadjo_dilo]

I don't need religion to have morals. I don't need religion to be charitable. I don't need religion to know not to kill. I don't need religion to live humans or anything else.

Interesting....
And sounds fair.
But are humans good by nature? Or they reached this high level of conscience due to centuries of obedience to some rules "given" by different Gods?
.............

[Robinho]

Interesting....
And sounds fair.
But are humans good by nature? Or they reached this high level of conscience due to centuries of obedience to some rules "given" by different Gods?
.............

It's an interesting philosophical question, that could take months to debate. In short, I don't think so, our evolution has taken us to a point where we are able, in fact need, to sustain a complex society. Just last night I watched a fascinating program on this - Brian Cox's Human Universe I think it is called, the episode about where we came from and how we went from primate, to person, from person fashioning simple shelter and spears, to building spaceships. Worth a watch whatever your religious persuasion, but everything contained in it made a huge amount more sense to me than an unseen creator who we should follow.

My other thoughts on god, is if one existed, how can I have this conversation? How can their be 3 branches of essentially the same religion at each other throats, and many more sects of those 3 who are prepared to kill for what is essentially the same god? Why do we need to be taught about religion, why aren't we born with the innate knowledge of this all powerful deity?

[Rudy Tamasz]

Robinho, no need to be sorry about my being sorry.

Overall, you sound like an agnostic, rather than atheist. With all respect for your views, in the modern day world it is difficult, pretty much impossible to counter somebody else's strong beliefs and convictions like those of Paris shooters, while yours are so vague.

Something inside tells me that the unreligiousness of the French is a contributing factor to such easy penetration of Islamic militants into their society.

[gadjo_dilo]

It's an interesting philosophical question, that could take months to debate. In short, I don't think so, our evolution has taken us to a point where we are able, in fact need, to sustain a complex society.

But in your post you talk about material evolution and scientific discoveries. Is the man of the 21st century more compationate, loving, respectful in the relationships with other people than the man of -let`s say- 19th century?
I 've noticed a thing. In the last 30 years people around me have become less caring, more egocentric, more greedy and insensitive. It's weird cos in these years our life has radically changed for better from a material point of view.

[Robinho]

Robinho, no need to be sorry about my being sorry.

Overall, you sound like an agnostic, rather than atheist. With all respect for your views, in the modern day world it is difficult, pretty much impossible to counter somebody else's strong beliefs and convictions like those of Paris shooters, while yours are so vague.

Something inside tells me that the unreligiousness of the French is a contributing factor to such easy penetration of Islamic militants into their society.

I would catergorise myself as atheist, strongly in fact. I genuinely do not believe in any god. I'm not agnostic is the sense that I don't feel I can know for certain, I am certain there is not a god. But, like many in the world I expect, who do identify themselves as Christian, I do observe the cultural festivities, just not identifying with the ideology or story behind them.

Unsure about the idea of a lack of religiousness allowing penetration for extremism, not when you look at the extremes of violence in highly religious societies (pakistan, Nigeria for example). I hope, and think I observe, a growing apathy towards all things religious in a lot of the "developed" world, which will I hope push these issues further out, but I do also agree that modern society is becoming more impatient and insular. I don't necessarily equate that to religion or lack thereof, as the symptoms do not seem to afflict the non-religious only - consider that in the USA over 80% of people identify themselves as belonging to a religion, but they are just as afflicted by the same social problems and general rudeness. I think it's just people, and as there are more people in more compressed area. I also think religion feeds some of these divides, which are replaced by racial, sexual and class discrimination and barriers.

[Rudy Tamasz]

I don't want to generalize. My comment about penetration of extremism related specifically to France as a (formerly) Christian country. There are, at least, two things about Christianity that it contributes to establishing and maintaining peace and stability in the countries where it is practiced. One is the principle of self-restraint, which is at the core of Christian faith, and which was disputed in the course of religious wars and then proven the hard way. Once you have the sense of self-restraint, you are less likely to attack or offend the feelings of somebody of a different belief living next to you for the simple fear of retaliation. Second is the sense of being on the same page with others, more or less. In Christian countries it results in the "we do things this way in our neighborhood" attitude. Sometimes it leads to the exclusion of dissidents, but overall it helps people to avoid too many conflicts. With this "anything goes" attitude, which they practice in France, it's all too easy for an outsider to come in and upset the apple cart. Or vin et frommage cart, for that matter.

[Rollo]

Whilst no fan of guns, I think this case further highlights that religion of any type, particularly the abrahamic ones, have no place in modern society

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-11-2...one2809d/41376
Yet, there is no fool-proof way to define “religion” that will include such belief systems as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Confucianism while excluding nationalism, political ideologies, capitalism, pop culture, sport and more.
- Joel Hodge, ABC - The Drum, 22 Nov 2010.

No fool proof way to define “religion” eh?

How about:
Religion for want of a better word is a set of practices based on or that follow as a result of one's faith. To put it more simply: Faith is where and what you believe in; Religion is what you do about it.

The thing is that everybody believes in something. It might not necessarily involve a formal set of practices but ultimately it's impossible to be a human being and actually not have any belief set whatsoever. Ever atheism is a belief that there is/are no/lack of god(s).

"religion of any type" has "no place in modern society"? Really? I would suggest that if someone were to shoot your family, your belief set would very quickly come to the surface: ergo, you don't actually believe your own statement.

[Tom206wrc]

R.I.P. to the journalists of Charlie Hebdo who have been killed yesterday by the islamic terrorists