Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

[Mirek]

Ah yes I was only thinking of out right stopping power.

Actually I was not very precise there. Recuperation helps greatly with stopping power because it creates torque opposite to the movement of the wheel and doesn't generate any heat on the brakes. That means that it's an additional braking power on top of what the brakes themselves can do.

[Mirek]

One of my favorite quotes:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

"Current technology" is a notable part of the discussion. EV sold today has basically the same technology as 10 years ago... except it evolved massively.
Yes there has not be a massive step in range/charging, but there have been lots of tiny steps. Together these added up so that nowadays mainstream cars have 500 km real range in summer and some 400 in winter (real winter, not 1 week of snow and barely below zero) and charge half the battery in under 15 mins.

The only real limit for EVs becoming mainstream is the price. The high prices are partly caused by manufacturers themselves cause they all started with big SUVs with lots of power that they could make good margins on.

Found a graph for you to explain while I have issues with people living in CZ explaining how EVs don't work:

https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/e...e-vedou-244690

CZ with 3% EV sales in 2023 (3rd lowest in EU, though the two last have 2.9 and 2.7% which is basically the same). Norway is not on the chart cause it is not in EU, but the rate is over 80% for some time. (The rate of EVs to total number of vehicles on the road is over 25% and increasing)

Yes EVs are comparably cheaper in Norway due to the tax system, which removes the price issue. (Though in practice it mostly means people buy better cars than they did before for the same price.)
Still it doesn't change that it can be used to see if all the other EV "issues" are a big problem....and they aren't.

The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

[Mirek]

Direct quote:



"Can do" - is able to run or finish.

Nothing about speed.

You know that 1990 group A car would get beaten by 1986 group B car. 2013 Fiesta WRC would get beaten by 2008 Focus WRC on most rallies etc.

Ironically the epic looking and sounding group B car would also get beaten by even WRC car from 2003 on most rallies due to much better suspension and traction.

Speed does only matter inside own class, spectacle matters more. In terms of EVs the car could be more spectacular out of corners especially slow corners but will obviously lose time in faster corners and braking. (Kinda exact opposite of an S2000).

If EV rally car can deliver more spectacle than current Rally2 it won't matter if its only marginally faster. Some 0,5-1s/km faster than current Rally2 should be possible even by your rough numbers.

To make Rally EV spectacular it needs to have much more power even at the expense of much more weight. Not be "similar" to petrol cars. So more like the NitroRX cars than the 360 hp RX2e cars.


With regards to the numbers you don't seem to take away the extra weight of the petrol engine as well as some related bits like center diff and much bigger gearbox. But if we instead assume a bigger battery the weight difference would likely be about the same.

For comparison current Taycan and Ioniq 5N will do over 50 km (over 2 laps) at Nurburgring at max push before the batteries overheat with battery capacity to spare. In a racing car cooling could obviously be increased.

You are cooking a soup of water.

[becher]

Actually I was not very precise there. Recuperation helps greatly with stopping power because it creates torque opposite to the movement of the wheel and doesn't generate any heat on the brakes. That means that it's an additional braking power on top of what the brakes themselves can do.

Well yes, but is that power even usable? I struggle to put it together in english, but if you where to increase the stopping power a lot, wouldn't the braking force be much to high compared to your friction force that the tyres can handle?

[becher]

The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

Yep the common tax payer is subsidizing luxury BEV SUV for rich people and the manufacturers are even allowed to advertise the cars with the subsidized price. Madness. It's horrible from a social point.

[Mirek]

Well yes, but is that power even usable? I struggle to put it together in english, but if you where to increase the stopping power a lot, wouldn't the braking force be much to high compared to your friction force that the tyres can handle?

Yes because you can brake more while not risking overheating of the brakes. One braking and one stage with hundreds of brakings in close sequence is different thing.

[saco0o]

last weekend v8supercars had one of the best racing ever.
got 25min to do nothing but watch youtube? go for it, you will not regreat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr6wz8oLrmM

[mknight]

You are cooking a soup of water.

You were telling lies again and responded by changing the subject. Then when that got pointed out you follow on by random trolling.

Well played.

[mknight]

The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

1. In the list of EV market share by country about half of those countries had no subsidies. Including many of those with 20-30% market share. How does that happen in your opinion when it's all about subsidies?

2. For those countries that have subsidies there are many different systems. Most went from general subsidy no matter the price over to price limits where you get lower or no subsidy for more expensive EVs. Usually this happened within a few years of EV sales increasing. So this argument is dimished in most markets.

3. Another point is that if an EV subsidy makes your rich neighbor change his 3L TDI Q7 for Tesla X to drive kids around it might be a net win for the local environment in terms of sound and smell.

[Gregor-y]

Within 10 years there´s not much EV´s sold at all.

Hydrogen engines will rather rule.

Without considering distribution and storage production of hydrogen would need a lot of energy.

Consider the next big energy producers being in geologically active areas like Iceland, Hawaii, east Asia, Nicaragua, Wyoming, and Italy...