Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

**Rallyper** · 8th January 2021, 09:10

Originally Posted by the sniper

No road sections and non-road legal wacky racer prototypes not based on road cars... Are we still calling it rallying?

They don´t need to be wacky. Just think of the costsaving. So yes it´s still rallying. Rallycars on stages is rallying.

**T16** · 8th January 2021, 09:27

Originally Posted by Rallyper

They don´t need to be wacky. Just think of the costsaving. So yes it´s still rallying. Rallycars on stages is rallying.

The cars being on the road in between stages was part of what makes Rallying. That's not being all sentimental, it's simply a pillar of what makes the sport.

**mknight** · 8th January 2021, 09:40

3 "pillars" that make rallying for me:

1. driven on normal roads, that are used for normal driving outside of rallies (else it's circuit racing or rallycross)
2. cars drive between stages on normal roads (else it's hillclimb)
3. cars resemble passenger vehicles that are driven and can be bought by public, resemble both in appearance, and method/style of propulsion. (else it's like autocross buggys, something "alien")

- so RWD cars from 1970s that nobody drives today are "historic" rallying for me, but not something to compete in on top level today

- when cars are run on petrol, rally cars should drive on petrol, when cars are hybrids, rally cars should be hybrids, when cars are electric, rally cars should be electric. At this very moment all 3 are available and used, so all 3 work for me). But running say on methanol like dragsters or something completely alien like an onboard chemical reactor (mixing 2 chemical components to generate energy) is just wrong for me. Similarly if in the future 99% of vehicles are electric, it would be wrong for me to have rallycars running on some synthetic petrol.

**Mirek** · 8th January 2021, 10:38

Originally Posted by denkimi

I doesn't need to run without them. It just needs to be possible to build and drive a car without them.

I agree with this.

**Rallyper** · 8th January 2021, 13:35

Originally Posted by mknight

3 "pillars" that make rallying for me:

1. driven on normal roads, that are used for normal driving outside of rallies (else it's circuit racing or rallycross)
2. cars drive between stages on normal roads (else it's hillclimb)
3. cars resemble passenger vehicles that are driven and can be bought by public, resemble both in appearance, and method/style of propulsion. (else it's like autocross buggys, something "alien")

- so RWD cars from 1970s that nobody drives today are "historic" rallying for me, but not something to compete in on top level today

- when cars are run on petrol, rally cars should drive on petrol, when cars are hybrids, rally cars should be hybrids, when cars are electric, rally cars should be electric. At this very moment all 3 are available and used, so all 3 work for me). But running say on methanol like dragsters or something completely alien like an onboard chemical reactor (mixing 2 chemical components to generate energy) is just wrong for me. Similarly if in the future 99% of vehicles are electric, it would be wrong for me to have rallycars running on some synthetic petrol.

As many said, we have to adapt.

Adapting could mean no liasons. But stages like before. Of course cars people can buy. However that "autocross, alien" thing can be used on WRC17 cars as well.

**Mirek** · 8th January 2021, 14:49

The thing with the stock-based cars is actually the simples of all. Majority of cars coming in the stock market in the future will be useless for conversion into rallycars therefore rallying will have to take the prototype way. There is no other choice.

**Tarmop** · 8th January 2021, 15:23

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the populaar models are available in 4wd?

Electricity madness will soon go by, i am more than certain that there will be some alternatives soon, until then ICE will not go away. Sure, they will have hybrids, sure we will have EVs in the futuure also, maybe even some full EV badge...but the group will have another badge, that will remain ICE. There is no known way to build batteries with normal range, without destroying the planet and there aren`t powerlines that can recharge those thousands every given moment. I don`t also see that even all the new real-estate developments are thinkg about it, not to mention old households. Come to think of it, i don`t know even know how efficient emergency services are dealing with batteries.

When we have laws, that all the new households/shops/ highways etc will have to have X number of charging points, all the old households in the cities, countryside etc have to have charging points by the year of Y, there will be many...many years gone by.

**TypeR** · 8th January 2021, 15:36

Originally Posted by Tarmop

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the hatchbacks are available in 4wd?

Electricity madness will soon go by, i am more than certain that there will be some alternatives soon, until then ICE will not go away. Sure, they will have hybrids, sure we will have EVs in the futuure also, maybe....

Exactly what I also think.. At the moment it's like ,,peer pressure''.. Every brand has to do it coz other's are doing it too..
Hope the EV hype will calm down soon..

**Mirek** · 8th January 2021, 15:45

Originally Posted by Tarmop

What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the hatchbacks are available in 4wd?

Electricity madness will soon go by, i am more than certain that there will be some alternatives soon, until then ICE will not go away. Sure, they will have hybrids, sure we will have EVs in the futuure also, maybe even some full EV badge...but the group will have another badge, that will remain on ICE. There is no known way to build batteries with normal range, without destroying the planet and there aren`t powerlines that can recharge those thousands every given moment. I don`t also see that even all the new real-estate developments are thinkg about it, not to mention old households. Come to think of it, i don`t know even how efficient emergency services are dealing with batteries.

That's not only about EV. The pressure on emissions makes the engines very difficult to addapt for race use. Euro 7 is coming and there seems to be nothing which can stop it from going into application. Miller/Atkinson-cycle engines used already by Toyota and Mazda are near useless for racing and the others will have to abandon power for emissions as well if they want to continue with ICE. If you speak with any engine designer working in automotive today he tells you that when they design a new engine, the first thing is emissions. Only after that they can think about power. That is true even for brands like Porsche.

**Tarmop** · 8th January 2021, 16:15

But ofc it is. This has lasted already for a while and is going to get worse. I was saying that full EV is not going to happen, probably ever.
Thinking about motorsports and probably the next step in production vehicles Audi`s idea of an "EV" with a TFSI generaator comes into mind.