New R4 Car - Think Tank

[Jarek Z]

M-Sport chief rally engineer Chris Williams doesn't believe in the idea of R4 cars:
https://rallysportmag.com/m-sport-un...4-kit-formula/

[Steve Boyd]

Cant see the point in R4 really certainly when touted as a cheaper alternative to R5 but limited to a single supplier of the kits. This seems to fly in the face of opening up the market. We've already talked about the Maxi cars in Argentina etc and the UK has a log history of men in sheds building great cars, Andy Burton being at the forefront. Trouble is the RACMSA outlawed most of them so can see them having kittens about any new wave of machinery...

If the new cars are based on the same FIA bulkhead & floor modification limits that apply to R5 cars then anyone should be able to build one in his shed & get an MSA Cat2 logbook. If you build one from a kit where more than 20 kits are supplied a year you may even manage to convince them it's a "Specialist Rally Car" and get a Cat1 book.

[GravelBen]

M-Sport chief rally engineer Chris Williams doesn't believe in the idea of R4 cars:
https://rallysportmag.com/m-sport-un...4-kit-formula/

Nothing at all to do with the fact that a fair chunk of M-sport's business involves selling and running r5 cars of course!

(Not that I'm cynical or anything...)

[Steve Boyd]

Steve appreciate totally what you are saying and my post was a little tongue in cheek. I'm aware of cars like Craig Pennington's Polo etc just know how risk averse our governing body are getting. I still don't believe that there will be an appetite in the UK for this formula though as the cost will be high and cant see the local importers getting on board its not like the BTCC where they are happy to see other manufacturers parts being used in their cars. Also with M Sport being the "home" team the trickle down of cheaper WRC and R5 cars will be the default choice for a lot of drivers.

I know what you mean - I was writing somewhat hypothetically! Anyone trying to build a car to the FIA drawings themselves still has to climb a mountain to convince the MSA that what they've done is OK. As you say, with the trickle-down of old WRC & R5 cars added to the S2500 & R5+ options that are avaiable it's unlikely that we'll see much of either Dytko or R4 cars in the UK.

[mArvAlcao17]

I spoke with a contact who works for a WRC team and he mentioned an interesting point about the R4 cars. He said countries like Indonesia and even Australia have large taxes on imports. People who want a Skoda or Fiesta R5 in Indonesia to compete on the APRC would have to pay a large amount on taxes to import the cars. The R4 class allowing people to add their kit into any car that has a certain number of cars manufactured overcomes this issue. So a lot of people in Indonesia, Australia and other countries where import duty taxes are insane will benefit from these cars. Hence why Oreca are showing the Toyota Etios as a base car. This little Toyota was mainly for South America and Asian markets. The same markets which pay hefty duties if trying to import a car which is not sold in their region... So the target for R4 is most likely not Europe...

Firstly, let me introduce myself.

My name is Marv, and i'm a rally enthusiast and freelance journalist. In my Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/indonesianrallyfanbase/) I post quite a lot about the R4 because rallying at here is currently suffering, which one of the causes is lack of exciting cars on 4WD category, currently only fielding old Group N cars.

No people buy and run R5's at national championship because:
1. As the quote above said, the import tax is very expensive, which is 120%.

2. To made things worse, Indonesia goverment banned people from import used cars. Rally cars must run thru public roads on road section.

3. So, for example a new Skoda Fabia R5 price is (what i found from internet) €221,000. And with 120% tax = €265,200, which if converted into Rupiah means 4,2 billion, which is far too much.

4. Lack of manufacturers which build R5. From 9 manufacturers (both factory & privateer), there are only Hyundai, Peugeot, Proton and Mitsubishi whose sold their road cars in Indonesia (Ford withdrew last year). And all of them are quite inferior compared to Toyota & Honda, especially Peugeot & proton. That also means it's difficult to import spare parts.

There are no Mirage R5 at here, which the road car is quite popular on Indonesian road.

I, and many other people at here, is hopeful about R4 because we can build cars from stuff at here (Etios for example, which at here named Etios Valco). We know the complete car are still expensive, for example:

R4 kit + 120% tax (don't know the exact percentage): 108.000+22.000=130.000 euros
Brand new/used Toyota Etios Valco (at here Toyota's re-sell price are strong): 9500 euros
Manufacturing & development price: 6400 euros

So, the total=145.900 euros, or let say it 150.000 euros, which is 2.4 billions if converted to Rupiahs. That's quite a half fron R5 car completed with tax.

And there are some cars which cost even less than Etios Valco, like Honda Brio, which costs 7300 euros, or Datsun Go.

My calculations could be wrong though, but we try to save money as much as possible, and for us R4 is perfect. I admit that Oreca can cut something unimportant/too expensive to make it cheaper.

[br21]

You still need to remember about motorsport pieces which are not part of R4 kit - dampers - good ones would be 10k, seats, belts, extinguishers, all smaller things, etc, etc.

[mArvAlcao17]

You still need to remember about motorsport pieces which are not part of R4 kit - dampers - good ones would be 10k, seats, belts, extinguishers, all smaller things, etc, etc.

I know, but not sure the tuners at here would choose the high quality one. Usually they choose the cheaper one, or for wealthiest teams like Pertamax Motorsport, the between.

[mArvAlcao17]

I have a question btw. Is it possible to use used cars (as long the model is same as the new one), or even the older model, or is it must be a new one?

[OldF]

Hi Marv,

By your calculations the tax is not 120% but 20%. Is that tax (20%) additional to the VAT?

I found from Wikipedia that the VAT in Indonesia is 10%. Here in Finland it’s 24%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

Is it the same tax problem with AP4 cars?

[OldF]

I have a question btw. Is it possible to use used cars (as long the model is same as the new one), or even the older model, or is it must be a new one?

I don't think it has to be a new one. Specific regulations for cars with R4 kit http://www.fia.com/file/58633/downlo...token=mPk3dYbt