New R4 Car - Think Tank

[tommeke_B]

WRC of today are very very tiny cars. In my opinion they are to small. But the new STI is to big. The 2000 version of the 2 door impreza rally car is for me the perfect size for a rally car.

The wheel-base of Subaru Impreza S5 WRC is maybe 3 to 4cm longer than actual 1.6T WRC cars... The car has more "overhang", in total it's maybe something like 30-40cm longer than the "very very tiny" current WRC cars. Fact is that the cars on car market are growing all the time, and compared to the average car on the market, a current WRC car is smaller than 15 years ago indeed...

[Mirek]

People get a lot confused by the fact that the WRC cars are made of supermini class. Problem is that the class has grown a lot through the years while new classes appeared bellow. Current WRC cars are all around 4 meters long which means they are larger than cars like Peugeot 205, 206, Lancia Delta etc.

[stefanvv]

People get a lot confused by the fact that the WRC cars are made of supermini class. Problem is that the class has grown a lot through the years while new classes appeared bellow. Current WRC cars are all around 4 meters long which means they are larger than cars like Peugeot 205, 206, Lancia Delta etc.

This is also true. Still small class cars look little funny with all the spoilers and oversized wheel arches attached to them. Probably that's why people recognize shopping trolleys in them. You can't deny cars are getting smaller and smaller in that respect or another.

[Mirek]

I don't agree. Cars generally get bigger and bigger same as the people. Just compare Golf I with Golf VII. Golf I is smaller than today's Polo! The trend in the rallycars is mainly given by the efficiency. While big cars are simply too big, heavy and clumsy, too small cars are difficult to balance and tend to be unstable on high speeds. That's why we have the cars as we have. They are neither too small nor too big. The only difference is that while the needs and wishes of car buyers moved towards bigger cars the needs of motorsport stayed same.

[stefanvv]

I don't agree. Cars generally get bigger and bigger same as the people. Just compare Golf I with Golf VII. Golf I is smaller than today's Polo! The trend in the rallycars is mainly given by the efficiency. While big cars are simply too big, heavy and clumsy, too small cars are difficult to balance and tend to be unstable on high speeds. That's why we have the cars as we have. They are neither too small nor too big. The only difference is that while the needs and wishes of car buyers moved towards bigger cars the needs of motorsport stayed same.

Yes, I got Your point abut the actual size of the cars. Another point is they still look like a small cars, and from aesthetic point of view, they are small and ugly. With some more bigger cars with lets say 10cm more longer wheel base, there is much more room for more aesthetic look and fine lines of the car with all the aero packages enough for the speed in Rally.

BTW 205 T16 and Delta Integrale also looked small in my opinion

Only my opinion that is.

[Mirek]

Maybe funny fact... Peugeot 208 T16 has 2 cm larger wheelbase than Octavia WRC. That itself should say a lot about the development as any mass fitted outside of the axes is purely negative to the handling.

[Jack4688`]

I think it's a little short-sighted to just quote the overall length though. That Hyundai looks ridiculous in some angles because the bonnet is so short giving the impression of a small vehicle, no matter what you're told the overall length is compared to older generation cars - something we mostly see through rose-tinted spectacles.

Though modern superminis tend to be bigger than their predecessors they have grown in length and height disproportionately to their width. So cars like the Fiesta are quite narrow and shouldn't really work, but the huuuuge wheel arches make it look similar in impact as the 2000-2002 Focus WRC (just my opinion). I think the Fabia (MKI WRC, MKII S2000 and MKIII R5 all included) and Polo WRC all work well because the proportions are right. Cars like the DS3, i20 and Yaris have very short bonnets and overall look out of place as WRC-spec rally cars. The new i20 'coupe' looks like it should work well and let's not forget the 205 T16 was a supermini, I don't know how much it shared with standard 205s i.e was the wheelbase the same, were the headlights the same distance apart... Or did it look outwardly like a 205 but sharing absolutely no dimensions?

This Subaru on the other hand, like the road car is so big the wheels look like they're off an actual shopping trolley - I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that the road car has 18" wheels; they are just swallowed up by that body! It would be more interesting if the car was built to some extreme rally regs that meant it looked spectacular on the move.

Car size isn't all that important; variety and good looking cars are. My point is if the i20, for example, is similar in size to a Delta Integrale by some dimension I don't care - the i20 just looks shit.

[stefanvv]

Maybe funny fact... Peugeot 208 T16 has 2 cm larger wheelbase than Octavia WRC. That itself should say a lot about the development as any mass fitted outside of the axes is purely negative to the handling.

It probably has, I don't know, it doesn't help for the look, for sure it has effect on handling in proportion of the overall size, besides the central mounted engine

[Mirek]

I meant 208 not 205. 205 is quite a lot smaller and such wheelbase would not be possible with it

Anyway one thing which ruins the feeling of the size is what Jack came with. It's the huge height of the bonnet. This is mainly result of pedestrian safety regulations. Simply the more space between the bonnet and the cylinder head the bigger chance the pedestrian's head won't get smashed. Similar thing came from side-impact crash tests. Windows got smaller, steel got more massive. And finally the third points is space. People sitting higher need less longitudinal space hence the cars get higher. The negative side of all of that is the look when even really big wheels look strangely small in the mass of steel around.

[stefanvv]

I meant 208 not 205. 205 is quite a lot smaller and such wheelbase would not be possible with it

Ah yes, silly me, didn't read the '8' before T16 while in my previous post I meant 205 T16.

Anyway one thing which ruins the feeling of the size is what Jack came with. It's the huge height of the bonnet. This is mainly result of pedestrian safety regulations. Simply the more space between the bonnet and the cylinder head the bigger chance the pedestrian's head won't get smashed. Similar thing came from side-impact crash tests. Windows got smaller, steel got more massive. And finally the third points is space. People sitting higher need less longitudinal space hence the cars get higher. The negative side of all of that is the look when even really big wheels look strangely small in the mass of steel around.

May be there is some truth in this don't know, I'm not that expert in current factory cars safety. For me it just looks like 2 door small car with little more space for the passengers and for the luggage, than cars 15-20 years ago, attached with all kind of aerodynamic elements, and big asphalt 18' wheels. They just doesn't seem like aesthetic proportions.