Israel refuses peace negotiations

[Rani]

No, I mean what's wrong in resistance? There was resistance when the Nazis tried to expand their "Third Reich" to Poland. I don't see much difference in today's Israel and the past "Third Reich". They both want/wanted more "lebensraum" (room to live in) and have a "winner takes it all" attitude. Neither are/were ready to compromise and share.

I think you are comparing Israel to the Nazi's just to flare my temper (me being decendant of Holocaust survivors and all), that's pretty mean on your part IMO. Furthermore, You seriously need a history lesson. Class is in session, please pay attention:
Striving for more "leibensraum"?
read this: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_199...david_2000.php
All this was in 2000.

"The details were not disclosed formally, but according to media reports Barak's offer included:

• Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
• The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
• The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
• Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
• Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
• "Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967 "[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]

What's more sharing than offering East Jerusalem?
What's more comprimising than one sidedly kicking all Jewish settlers out of Gaza in 2005? Do you know what we got in return for executing the "disengagment plan"?
We got nothing but more violence.

I objectively think we are not the ones throwing sticks in the peace process' wheels. Give us a Palestinian leader whose ready to recognize our right to live here as much as he does and you'll have peace in no time.

It's so nice living in a clean glass tower and judging while you plainly never sat foot neither in Israel nor in The Territories. All this self righteousness is making me sick.

[Malbec]

What's more sharing than offering East Jerusalem?
What's more comprimising than one sidedly kicking all Jewish settlers out of Gaza in 2005? Do you know what we got in return for executing the "disengagment plan"?
We got nothing but more violence.

I objectively think we are not the ones throwing sticks in the peace process' wheels. Give us a Palestinian leader whose ready to recognize our right to live here as much as he does and you'll have peace in no time.

It's so nice living in a clean glass tower and judging while you plainly never sat foot neither in Israel nor in The Territories. All this self righteousness is making me sick.

There will be a point in history when rational Palestinians will remember the rejection of that offer as possibly being the greatest disaster in their history since 1948.

The other problem the Palestinians have always had is a lack of a coherent command and control structure. Fatah could well negotiate a ceasefire with the Israelis with the best of intentions only to have the rug pulled out from under them by some renegade group firing rockets into Israel or organising a suicide bombing expedition and thus violating the ceasefire. Now keeping these elements under control is even harder because much of the Palestinian security infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israelis, but unless the Palestinians can instill discipline within their ranks real peace will be impossible.

The Israelis put obstacles in the way of peace efforts too, engaging in talks whilst expanding settlements for example. That kind of behaviour really needs to stop. Also how did Israelis react to the killing of Prime Minister Rabin? Most countries would have been determined to finish the peace process he had started, instead Israelis voted for a politician who had views more in common with his assassin to succeed him.

Ultimately both sides are running out of time. On the Israeli side the birth rate of the religious right outstrips that of mainstream Jews and immigration ensuring that Israel gets more polarised, whilst the extremists are getting more powerful on the Palestinian side as the mainstream political groups keep failing to deliver promised improvements. If peace seems hard to achieve now, it'll only get harder.

Oh and Rani don't worry too much about Eki, his knowledge of the Middle East is derived only through the internet.

[Jag_Warrior]

I objectively think we are not the ones throwing sticks in the peace process' wheels.

Hopefully you meant subjectively. Agreeing to disagree is what needs to happen sometimes. But there's no way that one could be in the middle of a dispute and then say (without a giggle), "I am the one being objective here."

[Rani]

There will be a point in history when rational Palestinians will remember the rejection of that offer as possibly being the greatest disaster in their history since 1948.

The other problem the Palestinians have always had is a lack of a coherent command and control structure. Fatah could well negotiate a ceasefire with the Israelis with the best of intentions only to have the rug pulled out from under them by some renegade group firing rockets into Israel or organising a suicide bombing expedition and thus violating the ceasefire. Now keeping these elements under control is even harder because much of the Palestinian security infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israelis, but unless the Palestinians can instill discipline within their ranks real peace will be impossible.

The Israelis put obstacles in the way of peace efforts too, engaging in talks whilst expanding settlements for example. That kind of behaviour really needs to stop. Also how did Israelis react to the killing of Prime Minister Rabin? Most countries would have been determined to finish the peace process he had started, instead Israelis voted for a politician who had views more in common with his assassin to succeed him.

Ultimately both sides are running out of time. On the Israeli side the birth rate of the religious right outstrips that of mainstream Jews and immigration ensuring that Israel gets more polarised, whilst the extremists are getting more powerful on the Palestinian side as the mainstream political groups keep failing to deliver promised improvements. If peace seems hard to achieve now, it'll only get harder.

Oh and Rani don't worry too much about Eki, his knowledge of the Middle East is derived only through the internet.

Agree with your every word.

[Eki]

I think you are comparing Israel to the Nazi's just to flare my temper (me being decendant of Holocaust survivors and all), that's pretty mean on your part IMO.

No, I'm just pointing out what a hypocrite Israel is, just like the US. You both believe that might makes right.

[Camelopard]

Class is in session, please pay attention:
.

And you are calling any one who puts an oppsosite point of view across as condescending!

[Rani]

No, I'm just pointing out what a hypocrite Israel is, just like the US. You both believe that might makes right.

I think you thoroughly showed you don't really know what's going on. You see the situation in such a black-white manner, that it almost seems like your talking out of some inner hatred towards Israel. That's probably the media coverage you consume talking. In my view, you're content in hearing one side of the story, and to he11 with the truth. I guess you just don't believe anything I say, even when backing it up with clear evidents.
Anyway, I'm not one to go in circles, so you can say the final word.
Anyone with half a brain, a clear mind and a bit of common sense will be able to spot whose opinions are based on knowledge and experience, and who just watches the news and reads the paper.
Over and out.
Rani
PS Remember this thread when fundamentalist terrorism comes your way, because you won't hear an "I told you so" from me.

[Eki]

PS Remember this thread when fundamentalist terrorism comes your way, because you won't hear an "I told you so" from me.

I can't see any reason why it would come. It's not like we've taken their land like Israel or been meddling in their soverignity and internal affairs like the US.

[Daniel]

I can't see any reason why it would come. It's not like we've taken their land like Israel or been meddling in their soverignity and internal affairs like the US.

I'm siding with Eki here. Since when do you hear of Finland pissing people off to the point where they want to kill ordinary Finnish citizens?

The Palestinians don't have issues with Israel because they believe they've got a good deal out of being displaced by Israel and that Israel treats them fairly now.....

[Magnus]

The palestinians have issues with Israel because they do not want them there at all; as said before they do not even accept Israel as as state in the first place. So which side is the better, the one which as least accepts the existence of the other state or the one that doesn´t?

I think there is no one which question Finlands right to exist today. If there where I think some Finns would be a bit upset.
Maybe it was wrong to place the Jew nation where it is to day in the first place, but now the decision is made by the UN, and very few opposes it. one group is some palestinians, who, like aother terrorist groups throughout the world doesn´t care if civilians are killed during the process.

Israel for sure is doing a lot of things the wrong way, but the state itself must be accepted by the palestinians, otherwise the debacle will never end.

The big problem for israel is that the state is quiestioned by other Arabic states in the area aswell, one of them being Ahmadinejad who has even questioned the holocaust. If it wasn´t for the support from UN and USA Israel would probably not exist toady.

The palestininans must accept that Israel will never go away, and we must accept it asweel. Then a proper discussion can take place.