Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

[Flat.tyres]

But that's not the FIA's problem. They want to know why Ron did nothing when supposedly his employees had and knew about the documents since March. Coughlan's affidavit gave the FIA many infos about the issue and Ron will have to explain everything now.

can you prove that employees of McLaren had knowledge of this document since March. can you even prove that Mike had the document in March please.

finally, can you tell us exactly what is on the affidavit because outside of the FIA, McLaren and Ferrari, you are the only one that has this knowledge apart from the bits that have been leaked to the Itallian media in a disgraceful media spin campaign that makes a mockery of any sort of justice in this case. I suppose it's Ron that leaked this info is it?

[ioan]

can you prove that employees of McLaren had knowledge of this document since March. can you even prove that Mike had the document in March please.

finally, can you tell us exactly what is on the affidavit because outside of the FIA, McLaren and Ferrari, you are the only one that has this knowledge apart from the bits that have been leaked to the Itallian media in a disgraceful media spin campaign that makes a mockery of any sort of justice in this case. I suppose it's Ron that leaked this info is it?

It's all in Coughlan's affidavit, and the FIA having been granted access to it summoned the McLaren team as soon as they've seen it, to asnwer why did they had the documents since March and did nothing about it!

You may b!tch about the Italian media as much as you like, that won't change what happened.

[Flat.tyres]

It's all in Coughlan's affidavit, and the FIA having been granted access to it summoned the McLaren team as soon as they've seen it, to asnwer why did they had the documents since March and did nothing about it!

You may b!tch about the Italian media as much as you like, that won't change what happened.

can you at least TRY to back up some of your posts

what evidence are the FIA using in relation to these charges. it may very well be the affadavit as you claim but there may be other things. the affadavit is not supposed to have been disclosed and is a sworn legal statement so unless you can prove what is in it, then we only have the very selective passages that have allegedly been disgracefully supplied to the Itallian press.

are they genuine and used in isolation like this, do they provide a true and accurate picture?

when youve been around the game long enough, you soon learn to take anything written in the press with a pinch of salt and not quote it as facts as some people here do. even when you do hear something with your own ears, it generally is 90% rubbish and you have to sift out the 10% that might have some basis in truth.

[ArrowsFA1]

But that's not the FIA's problem. They want to know why Ron did nothing when supposedly his employees had and knew about the documents since March.

The reason for the FIA hearing on the 26th July is for McLaren representatives

...to answer a charge that between March and July 2007, in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes had unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, including information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60729

That charge is a result of one McLaren employee, Mike Coughlan, having possession of those documents which in turn automatically means that the team as a whole is answerable to the FIA.

On that basis McLaren are in breach of the Sporting Code. However, I suspect that McLaren's argument is that Coughlan was acting alone, and in his own interests, and at no point were the documents in the possession of anyone else at McLaren.

[ioan]

The reason for the FIA hearing on the 26th July is for McLaren representatives
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60729

That charge is a result of one McLaren employee, Mike Coughlan, having possession of those documents which in turn automatically means that the team as a whole is answerable to the FIA.

Exactly.

On that basis McLaren are in breach of the Sporting Code. However, I suspect that McLaren's argument is that Coughlan was acting alone, and in his own interests, and at no point were the documents in the possession of anyone else at McLaren.

The trouble is that several team members knew about this breach of the sporting code but no one did anything to stop this and thus clean the teams name. Why is that?

[Flat.tyres]

The trouble is that several team members knew about this breach of the sporting code but no one did anything to stop this and thus clean the teams name. Why is that?

sorry, is this a fact or rumour?

as per your sig, please back that statement up.

[ArrowsFA1]

The trouble is that several team members knew about this breach of the sporting code but no one did anything to stop this and thus clean the teams name. Why is that?

That information has reportedly been leaked from Coughlan's affidavit (link) which apparently says that all McLaren employees responded in the same manner, by distancing themselves from the documents and advising Couglan to destroy them.

Following that report McLaren issued a statement saying:

"McLaren is concerned that erroneous speculation has arisen from inaccurate and misleading reference to the contents of confidential legal papers filed at court in response to Ferrari's UK action to recover its intellectual property. This is unfortunate and is prejudicial to a fair interpretation of these matters...McLaren can confirm from its own investigation that no Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari."

(link).

[Flat.tyres]

ioan, I think it's worth reminding ourselves of what we do actually know and consider what is allergation or rumour.

FACT

1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2.something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4.something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

number 4 is particulaly relevant because a duly signed and noted affadavit is not necessarily factually correct but is a sworn testamony of the truth as one person perceives it. we have the persons word that it is the truth but occassionaly, people lie to protect themselves. now, THAT is fact.

Allegation

1.the act of alleging; affirmation.
2.an assertion made with little or no proof.
3.an assertion made by a party in a legal proceeding, which the party then undertakes to prove.
4.a statement offered as a plea, excuse, or justification.

again, number 3 is the relevant passage. there is an allegation that McLaren may have had material that was another teams and contravened the FIA sporting code. McLaren have been summoned to give their side of this affair and answer the charge and any evidence. If, after this meeting, the FIA believe there is proof that McLaren is guilty, they will set about prooving the charge. if McLaren satisfactorily answer the charge, they will be absolved.

as for rumour, well, I guess thats what your talking about.

[ioan]

if McLaren satisfactorily answer the charge, they will be absolved.

I don't know what is a satisfactory answer in this case given that apparently they didn't do what was right to do, that is immediately announce Ferrari and the FIA about what happened.

That information has reportedly been leaked from Coughlan's affidavit (link) which apparently says that all McLaren employees responded in the same manner, by distancing themselves from the documents and advising Couglan to destroy them.

Following that report McLaren issued a statement saying:
(link).

But the problem is that, in the 'spirit of the rules' that so many hark on about, it's not enough just to distance yourself.

If anyone else at Mclaren knew that Coughlan had the documents, they should have brought it to the attention of Ron Dennis, the FIA & Ferrari.

Advising Coughlan to destroy them is not a moral stance and not a legal one, it's being implicit with an illegal action.