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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by focus206 View Post
    One has to be careful playing with BoP. Ideally, it should level the field a bit, like it does in GT World Challenge. But in FIA championships such as WEC and WTCR it's often horrible, and it swings considerable advantages each round. For example in WEC, it often led to Ferrari being clearly the better car in rounds 1, 3, 5 etc. and Porsche being clearly the better car in rounds 2, 4, 6 etc.
    GTWC and GT3 in IMSA and NLS also had issues for a while, both with their process and competitors gaming the system. They gradually got better over time. They also mandated more sensors so they can detect sandbagging. There are some articles and interviews in Race car engineering magazine about the details.

    No system is perfect but from a viewer point of view I prefer BOP to an arms race that ends up in escalating cost and teams leaving. I think that's the fundamental difference in the current wave of manufacturers interest in WEC and F1. Specifically the costs are way more predictable and in the case of WEC you are almost guaranteed to have a shot at victory. So the cost/benefit is pretty good especially due to Le Mans in WEC's case. The race is already sold out since December and they are building more stands and will probably issue more tickets.

    The WRC needs better promotion and some form of more direct cost limitation to improve the ROI and some manufacturers will come. Capping testing is easily overcome. I could see a type of WEC BOP working. For those that don't know the, part of the WEC BOP is a mandated "performance window" of aero efficiency. They put the cars in a wind tunnel and there's a limit of how good a car can be. From the purist perspective it's horrible and artificial. From the viewer it means the teams can design interesting and different cars, just compare the Peugeot with the Ferrari for an example. Another way to go would be a Dakar type Equivalence of Technology and allow free drivetrain choice. Hybrids, EVs and Fuel Cell could compete. I think that's a bit further away. There are complaints about the EOT sure, but the alternative is people shrugging and saying we can't compete with X they have a huge budget and we can't keep up.

    The WRC is not doing that bad, 5 drivers and 3 cars have won rallies in the last two years but it's on thin ice. What if MSport falls behind again and Hyundai go to F1? Do we watch Toyota sweep a few years clean or do we fall back to Rally2? Or do we have some plan? That's what WRC management should be asking themselves.

  2. Likes: AndyRAC (27th January 2023),focus206 (27th January 2023),skarderud (28th January 2023),steve.mandzij (28th January 2023)
  3. #212
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    for me the BoP idea makes complete sense, not only from a manufacturer engagement standpoint, but from a historical view as well. rallying in the widely considered "golden age" of Group B was a bunch of different drivetrain, layout, body style, and construction concepts battling against each other. then in the group A and early WRC days (for me the true golden age of competition) there were supermini inline fours vs flat four saloons, etc etc.

    of course I'm not saying this historical relevance is the reason I support BoP, but it just so happens that the best-regarded eras of the sport coincide with periods of regulations that promoted innovation and competition between different concepts with their own characteristics. moving forward with an open mind and allowing different power sources to compete on equal footing could be a good idea.

  4. Likes: AndyRAC (28th January 2023),wyler (28th January 2023)
  5. #213
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    BoP seems to be a neccesary 'evil' if you want to attract more than a few manufacturers. It hasn't put off the many entering the WEC & IMSA series. I don't like it, but providing it's done properly, and openly, it can work to a degree; however I have a problem with it being changed after qualifying.....Once practice starts...then that should be it.

    However, it's not likely to be needed in the WRC as I can't see them coming up with more than one 'formula' for future cars; Sportscars has historically seen differing cars/engines, etc Rallying in the recent era hasn't; the top class has been 2.0T 4WD, 1.6T 4WD.

    Is there a better sound than that of Porsche engined Flat-6 ???

  6. Likes: focus206 (28th January 2023),steve.mandzij (29th January 2023)
  7. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvel View Post
    My personal thougts would be that they let each manufacturor use the power suply they wont to promote. Than think of a decent way to arrange BOP! A championship where different kinds of energys are used would be a new thing. And each manufacturor could promote there system. Difficult to work out, i know but imagine a championship where EV's compete whit combustion, hybrid and hydrogen cars.
    .
    Hmmm but we kinda know that motorsport is not about PROMOTING technological stuff anymore.
    I mean, I think one can fool "f1" and "formula-e" fans in a way... but I think Rally fans are not like that.
    Honestly, what has been promoted in F1 right now? Nothing but drama between drivers and the team's principals, right? In Formula-E there was something for a while. The electric engines, of course... but the actual advances were on batteries and chassis (all spec! Kudos to Williams and Dallara or whatever names they use) and thats it. Bmw, audi and Mercedes left simply because they were promoting nothing to no one haha. Idk man... I agree that WEC is having this boom, but its not going to last, its so obvious. I dont think motorsport is here to PROMOTE tech, u'know?
    And at the same time, I dont think a "drive to survive" thing to WRC (or to ALL THE OTHER series.. since EVERYBODY now thinks every chapionship should copy that) would do anything for the sport. Theres no drama, no FIGHT on track, no angry driver saying sh*t on the radio... Its so confusing to think about "What should WRC do" right now IMO. Sooo weird.
    The most fun I had watching Rallying in recent years was 2019 and 2020 ERC seasons tbh, so I honestly dont think having these big powerfull cars and manufacturers are NECESSARY to an amazing championship... tho i LOVE these crazy fast machines... ahahh IDK man, its so confusing

  8. #215
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    But rally is the ideal tool to promote your technology. Cars are also stil recognized as the production models. So thats an advantage for wrc over championships like f1 or even Dakar.

    Use different drivetrains, but let them produce the same power output! That is a start.
    For aero and suspension etc. Rules are still the same for all.

    Constructor advertising a hydrogen powered (lets say) Toyota Yaris, can make posters/advertising whit car that is for sale in there showrooms! Thats 1 on 1 proof of how good the technology works. Customer (not die hard rally fan) doesn't need to know that (let's say) Hyundai whit petrol/hybrid is maybe faster sometimes.

    To cut costs is also difficult, no space frame cars seems like a good start, R5 shell we could say. There's a lot of decent race teams around that can build cars like that(hansen in rx for example) those can than buy power unit from manufacturer like millner suggested.

  9. Likes: AndyRAC (28th January 2023),steve.mandzij (29th January 2023)
  10. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvel View Post
    But rally is the ideal tool to promote your technology. Cars are also stil recognized as the production models. So thats an advantage for wrc over championships like f1 or even Dakar.
    .
    The guys on WTCC foruns used to say THE EXACT same thing.
    The "race on sunday sell on monday" works for less than 0,1% nowadays... AND u'd need a huge character to make that happen (like a Ken Block). And people who sees a car in a showroom will not start watching a racing series that runs for 3 days on a pay-to-watch model.

  11. Likes: AndyRAC (28th January 2023)
  12. #217
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    But these days a lot of customers are doubting wich type (read power suply) they would chose. So if a manufacturer can "prove" its a good system it might help!

    Rally nowadays has less fans than in the past, whit different systems/fuels the potential of winning over new crowd is also bigger. (not one green guy wil support petrol/hy, cars anymore). So to get new public it would also be good.

    Also, i think nobody now has the answer wat wil be bets choise in the future. And car manufactorors also are not sure, so for a global championship playing that card would be a smart move i think.

    Keeping only petrol /hybrid, wil not make any new fans..

  13. Likes: AndyRAC (28th January 2023),steve.mandzij (29th January 2023)
  14. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvel View Post
    But rally is the ideal tool to promote your technology. Cars are also still recognized as the production models. So that's an advantage for WRC over championships like f1 or even Dakar.
    Yes, in theory it is. In reality - it's sadly not the case.....and that's down to those running the WRC.

    Is there a better sound than that of Porsche engined Flat-6 ???

  15. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvel View Post
    But these days a lot of customers are doubting wich type (read power suply) they would chose. So if a manufacturer can "prove" its a good system it might help!

    Rally nowadays has less fans than in the past, whit different systems/fuels the potential of winning over new crowd is also bigger. (not one green guy wil support petrol/hy, cars anymore). So to get new public it would also be good.

    Also, i think nobody now has the answer wat wil be bets choise in the future. And car manufactorors also are not sure, so for a global championship playing that card would be a smart move i think.

    Keeping only petrol /hybrid, wil not make any new fans..
    I don't believe promoting technology via motorsports would get you more sales. Brand awareness, yes. The reason why I don't believe in the sales scenario is that now people look at cars differently. In a way all of them are the same, unless you go for the very basic cars that are still a decade or so behind current style with big screens and so on.

    Of course there are the nutters who care about what some brand is promoting or representing when it comes to technology. But that's a tiny minority.

    But the idea of opening up the top class for different approaches sounds like a good one.
    Never stop dreaming because one day it might happen.

  16. Likes: lmmjvss (29th January 2023)
  17. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    But the idea of opening up the top class for different approaches sounds like a good one.
    Yes. Idk how BoP would work, but maybe something simple like X HP / Y Weight? Fuel Flow doesnt matter in rallying like in WEC, right?
    My IDEAL top class for 2025 would be: Electric Renault 3E vs Hydrogen Yaris vs Vermont's Subarus with Boxer engine vs The new car Skoda releases almost every year vs Ralliart using whatever they want vs whatever Toksport, PetterSolberg's team, Msport and ProDrive can get their hands on. It looks like more of a "rally2+" thing in my mind than the current Rally1 supercars but Im fine with that

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