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  1. #781
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    Well we got Serderidis now

    Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk
    Or Greensmith and Loubet

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  3. #782
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by focus206 View Post
    From the top of my mind, I recall these small programs (from ewrc-results, I wasn't even born during Group B):
    Lampi, Eklund, Grissmann, Buffum (Audi)
    Vudafieri, Biasion (Lancia, even though Jolly Club was a sort of semi-works team)
    Turiani, Recordati, Iwase (Opel)
    Eklund (Austin Rover, I don't know how official was his entry)
    Meylan, Iwashita (Nissan)
    many Citroen Visa

    Most of them could only dream of competing with top teams, but could achieve top 5 places when there was high attrition. Actually some group A cars, especially works Golf of Eriksson, could achieve the same good results with high attrition or lower entries.
    Lampi was Audi's test driver. Eklund "could only dream of competing with top teams" LOL, he was a Saab works driver already in the 70's. Eklund's Metro was entered by the factory team in Sweden and RAC, by Clarion in other events. So at least semi-factory entry.

    Grissmann was fifth in Portugal 1985, losing an hour to the winner. Iwase lost 1h44m in Argentina 1984, being behind the fastest local Renault 11. That's Serderidis pace. Tchine (Turiani) was also much a gentleman driver, his fifth place comes from Portugal 1986 where the works teams withdrew!

    We can also add Harri Toivonen into the list, driving a Metro in 1000 Lakes and RAC 1986, not going really anywhere.

    Like you say, most of them could achieve top 5 results when there was high attrition, similarly as Group A cars. And it's the same as Rally2 cars getting to top 5 now.

    But yeah, times are different. Rallying was big and car manufacturers put lot of marketing money into rallying, even dealers supporting drivers in national championships. It's not the same anymore.

    And about privateers in general. If we assume the current factory cars would suddenly turn into Rally2 - on the same level as current WRC2 privateers - but all the effort from the factory teams, testing and professional sporting and skill and experience from the drivers would remain, the "privateers" couldn't win a single stage against the factory guys, if not for exceptional weather conditions. The level of competition and detail is just so high on the top level.
    Last edited by AnttiL; 2nd July 2022 at 21:47.

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  5. #783
    Senior Member cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Or Greensmith and Loubet
    They are in the official team, scoring even team points. True privateer is Serderidis and in some scale yes, Loubet.
    Greensmith is a factory driver and been in that position for a couple of seasons, although not by merit.

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    Last edited by cali; 2nd July 2022 at 23:54.

  6. #784
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    They are in the official team, scoring even team points. True privateer is Serderidis and in some scale yes, Loubet.
    Greensmith is a factory driver and been in that position for a couple of season, although not by merit.

    Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk
    Loubet does not score team points, neither does Greensmith when Loeb is driving.

  7. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    Greensmith is a factory driver and been in that position for a couple of season, although not by merit.
    How then?

    True privateer to me enters themselves, ideally running their own car. Serderidis was entered by M-Sport Ford WRT in a car he owns so he must leases it out to M-Sport to use. Greensmith brings the family businesses as sponsors. These are more like investors than privateers.

    On Group B and A, manufacturers were forced to build 200 or 5000 extra cars for sale or use.

  8. #786
    Senior Member cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Loubet does not score team points, neither does Greensmith when Loeb is driving.
    That's a great list of privateers even if you count that way (sarcasm alert)

  9. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Eklund "could only dream of competing with top teams" LOL, he was a Saab works driver already in the 70's. Eklund's Metro was entered by the factory team in Sweden and RAC, by Clarion in other events. So at least semi-factory entry.
    Did you forget to read the 3 words I wrote before "could only dream of competing with top teams"?

  10. Likes: AnttiL (3rd July 2022),cali (2nd July 2022)
  11. #788
    Senior Member cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnttiL View Post
    Lampi was Audi's test driver. Eklund "could only dream of competing with top teams" LOL, he was a Saab works driver already in the 70's. Eklund's Metro was entered by the factory team in Sweden and RAC, by Clarion in other events. So at least semi-factory entry.

    Grissmann was fifth in Portugal 1985, losing an hour to the winner. Iwase lost 1h44m in Argentina 1984, being behind the fastest local Renault 11. That's Serderidis pace. Tchine (Turiani) was also much a gentleman driver, his fifth place comes from Portugal 1986 where the works teams withdrew!

    We can also add Harri Toivonen into the list, driving a Metro in 1000 Lakes and RAC 1986, not going really anywhere.

    Like you say, most of them could achieve top 5 results when there was high attrition, similarly as Group A cars. And it's the same as Rally2 cars getting to top 5 now.

    But yeah, times are different. Rallying was big and car manufacturers put lot of marketing money into rallying, even dealers supporting drivers in national championships. It's not the same anymore.

    And about privateers in general. If we assume the current factory cars would suddenly turn into Rally2 - on the same level as current WRC2 privateers - but all the effort from the factory teams, testing and professional sporting and skill and experience from the drivers would remain, the "privateers" couldn't win a single stage against the factory guys, if not for exceptional weather conditions. The level of competition and detail is just so high on the top level.
    Surprise surprise, there was privateer drivers in the gr B. Glad that we got this sorted.

  12. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    Surprise surprise, there was privateer drivers in the gr B. Glad that we got this sorted.
    The rules were so different then. It was allowed to service between stages, service in the stages, spare parts were carried in entry cars like a “water carrier” does at Dakar, engineers were sometimes in a third seat in an entered car.
    Buffum had some great stories about driving the car with the engineer in it and the guy falling asleep mid-stage!
    The clever teams took every tactical advantage possible and this created opportunities for other drivers who were fairly quick to be entered in these events and support the main crews.
    It’s just not like that now.
    I’d also wager from pure cost point of view that although teams spent less on the car itself, they spent such an enormous amount more on spare parts, logistics and time on-event than is done now that the overall costs were much higher. Meaning a privateer driver had to come up with a huge budget to compete OR they had to deliver some value that the team would heavily subsidize or fully cover their entry.
    It would be great to have a deeper field but many of the reasons there have been deeper fields in the past are not currently factors.
    Last edited by OHL; 3rd July 2022 at 04:30. Reason: Update

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  14. #790
    Senior Member AnttiL's Avatar
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    2022 WRC News & Rumours

    Quote Originally Posted by cali View Post
    Surprise surprise, there was privateer drivers in the gr B. Glad that we got this sorted.
    Gentlemen drivers and semi-factory drivers.
    Just like today.

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