Nelson Mandela RIP

[webberf1]

Lol, can anyone believe this guy? Still running with that same line of thought that since I'm Australian, I have certain inherent attitudes, and have obviously been overly influenced by the media here to hold certain views.

In this country, 80% of the media believed Tony Abbott was exactly what the doctor ordered after the 'disastrous' Labor years, 98% believes Obama is doing just fine and is one of the best US presidents of all time, 99% believe the global economy is 'back on track' in steady recovery mode since the GFC, and all but 100% believe in the aforementioned Gallipoli myths. Somehow, I believe in none of those things. There's a reason why I'm now keenly studying International Relations at the honours level, and it's because I love critically analysing history and contemporary affairs, and being able to determine who wants you to think what rather than towing some media-driven line of opinion.

The only way I can justify you not getting the point of why I admire Mandela, is because you genuinely seem like the kind of person who got beat up at school and did practically nothing to really stand up for yourself rather than sulk about it. Fortunately, Mandela was of the opposite spectrum of humanity - the kind who didn't take shit, stood up for freedom (rather than hid behind it), and then even more rare by human standards was that he offered forgiveness to his most brutal oppressors when the tables of power were turned (otherwise, he probably would have been a Mugabe-type). The wrongs he did as an early liberation leader genuinely weigh little compared to the massive good he achieved.

[webberf1]

I think this discussion went a bit downhill when criticisms were made based on the history of certain posters country of origin. I've been on the receiving end of things like that in the past where someone has criticised shameful things Great Britain has done throughout history. My answer to that is, what the hell has that got to do with me? I don't need to apologise for things people from my country did years before I existed. Stuff that, I'm not guilty or responsible. I will share opinions on my admirations for people who I respect in history though. Why not?

Exactly. The moment someone stereotypes based on a person's nationality, you immediately know they have very limited capacity for proper debate. And as you say, you can't be held accountable for your ancestors' sins. The important part, for example for me as an Australian, is that I recognise that what I enjoy in life today largely stems from what was brutally stolen from another culture in years long passed. Same with Americans. Or any number of European countries, whose high-ranking positions in the world today stem from a time when they gained that advantage by brutal colonial domination. From that recognition stage we can then put in our own time and effort to help and reconcile with these associated cultures, and do whatever we can to heal old wounds.

EDIT: Anyways, I somehow think danny boy's pride is going to keep f**king with his chances of seeing the situation fairly. Therefore, 'thats all folks' for me in this debate (if you can call it that).

[Daniel]

Lol, can anyone believe this guy? Still running with that same line of thought that since I'm Australian, I have certain inherent attitudes, and have obviously been overly influenced by the media here to hold certain views.

The only way I can justify you not getting the point of why I admire Mandela, is because you genuinely seem like the kind of person who got beat up at school and did practically nothing to really stand up for yourself rather than sulk about it. Fortunately, Mandela was of the opposite spectrum of humanity - the kind who didn't take shit, stood up for freedom (rather than hid behind it), and then even more rare by human standards was that he offered forgiveness to his most brutal oppressors when the tables of power were turned (otherwise, he probably would have been a Mugabe-type). The wrongs he did as an early liberation leader genuinely weigh little compared to the massive good he achieved.

You seem very keen to make blanket statements about me such as the following

1. I'm bitter. You never answered why.

2. That I said he was a useless terrorist. I never said this.

3. That I feel that the current issues mean Apartheid was justified.

4. That I don't think you should be able to admire him.

5. That I got bullied at school and did nothing about it. I mean wtf?

You seem unable to make a genuine argument so you go around making personal digs at people and putting words in their mouth. I said Mandela was a terrorist, I never said that no one could admire him and I didn't deny that he did a lot of good. things.

[Daniel]

I think this discussion went a bit downhill when criticisms were made based on the history of certain posters country of origin. I've been on the receiving end of things like that in the past where someone has criticised shameful things Great Britain has done throughout history. My answer to that is, what the hell has that got to do with me? I don't need to apologise for things people from my country did years before I existed. Stuff that, I'm not guilty or responsible. I will share opinions on my admirations for people who I respect in history though. Why not?

Exactly. The moment someone stereotypes based on a person's nationality, you immediately know they have very limited capacity for proper debate. And as you say, you can't be held accountable for your ancestors' sins. The important part, for example for me as an Australian, is that I recognise that what I enjoy in life today largely stems from what was brutally stolen from another culture in years long passed. Same with Americans. Or any number of European countries, whose high-ranking positions in the world today stem from a time when they gained that advantage by brutal colonial domination. From that recognition stage we can then put in our own time and effort to help and reconcile with these associated cultures, and do whatever we can to heal old wounds.

I never criticised you based on your origin, I simply stated that you come from a country (don't forget I was born and raised there too) that never told the whole story of Mandela in the media just as you feel they didn't tell the whole story about Abbot. Again you're putting words in my mouth and intentions in my heart. I said that growing up in Australia makes it hard for anyone to understand the true story of Mandela. In Australia his imprisonment was sold as being purely because he opposed the Apartheid regime and not because he was involved in terrorism which was the case. Mandela was offered the chance to get out if he renounced violence http://www.sahistory.org.za/dated-event ... ase-prison, he turned this down and even when released stated that the armed struggle must go on.

Feel free to make up things about me and insinuate that I beat my wife or some other such silly things if you don't have a proper answer to my points.

[gadjo_dilo]

I think this discussion went a bit downhill when criticisms were made based on the history of certain posters country of origin. I've been on the receiving end of things like that in the past where someone has criticised shameful things Great Britain has done throughout history. My answer to that is, what the hell has that got to do with me? I don't need to apologise for things people from my country did years before I existed. Stuff that, I'm not guilty or responsible. I will share opinions on my admirations for people who I respect in history though. Why not?

Permit me to add to this that I also don't need to apologise for things people from my country do these days although I (still) exist and am contemporary with them. I'm also not guilty or responsible.

[Spafranco]

WEBBERF1 Do you try really hard to make yourself look clueless or does it just come naturally? I love how you've just jumped to the assumption that I'm a hypocrite (and presumably some 'Aussie pride' bogan) on the issue of blacks in South Africa solely because I come from Australia. It's almost, and I do say almost, as dumb as the time Spafranco immediately assumed I was some neoconservative republican fanboy, masquerading as an American solely because I pointed out how obviously disastrous the Obama Administration has been.

Like your buddy Spa, I'm here to bring you back to reality. No one will be as quick as me to admit Australia's utterly disgusting history when it comes to this land's indigenous people, and race relations with our Asian neighbours. In fact, for most of history we were far, far worse and more appalling than South Africa! So much so in fact that when Woodrow Wilson wanted to veto Japan's requests for racial equality in the League of Nations, he essentially went to Australia, ahead of South Africa, to do the dirty work. Also a good reason for why we to a large degree deserved Japan's hostility to us in the years that followed. Want me to go on about how this country supported the confederates in the Civil War, or how its national pride in reference to Gallipoli is often based on complete myths?

Again, get a clue. You're dealing with someone who has a massive passion for racial equality and improvement of quality of life for indigenous people - and has put his actual time and effort into contributing towards that.

My point is this, don't you make completely false assumptions about me, based on nothing but my nationality, just because you can't make a proper, independent argument for crap, and continue to undermine yourself by maintaining your poor and bitter attitude.

It's people like you who make the following pic true, and why you're really not worth the effort https://images.encyclopediadramatica.es ... ternet.jpg[/quote]

Webber, do the forum a favor and stick to the topic. Stop adjudicating what you believe as though it were fact. Stop dragging the forum down and using me as your puppet in doing so. You seem to believe that you have this considerable knowledge of the beliefs and presumed thoughts of other forum members. Believe me Webber, you are as inconsequential to me as Mark Webber was to Red Bull. You trumpet ultra right wing jargon and then use your bully pulpit to deflect from your tripe and insensitive posts.

Keep your comments with reference to me in posts directly to me. Don't draw Daniel into your obvious narcissistic belief that you know so much as to put us as politically aligned. I don't know the man and I doubt he knows me. However, let me tell you this I find his posts to be intellectually superior to your right wing blather while trying to convey an argument that is more racist than it is political. You fool not one.

[anfield5]

You ensured our nation had a peaceful transition to democracy and freedom for all. Your humbleness, forgiveness, humility, humanitarianism and love was appreciated by all the people in our nation, black and white.

To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is not to die. Your life and legacy will be celebrated for generations to come.

Tata Madiba Tata!

Beautiful sentiments 555

[555-04Q2]

You ensured our nation had a peaceful transition to democracy and freedom for all. Your humbleness, forgiveness, humility, humanitarianism and love was appreciated by all the people in our nation, black and white.

To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is not to die. Your life and legacy will be celebrated for generations to come.

Tata Madiba Tata!

Beautiful sentiments 555