Scuderia Toro Rosso announces all-new driver line-up for 2012

[jens]

I do wonder whether up and coming young drivers will be so willing to be a part of the Red Bull programme when they see drivers such as JA (who deserves more IMHO) out of a seat. I'm not sure he, or Buemi, could have done much more.

So which programme should a young driver prefer? Let's take a look at Gravity - d'Ambrosio got one year, but seems to be out of the game now.

Oh, and many drivers could have done more in their racing career, not just the Toro Rosso ones. You could turn it around by saying that without Red Bull's support and with the help of an alternative sponsor/driver scheme it is very unlikely either Alguersuari or Buemi would have had 3 years of F1 by now, perhaps no F1 at all!

Red Bull programme is hard, because there have been many drivers and the competition is tight. But it also gives more opportunities, because Red Bull has a special junior F1 team, where you can actually race. No other junior programme has such luxury of additional two F1 race seats just for you, which means that graduating to F1 would be more difficult via alternative junior programme.

[Malbec]

To be fair to Red Bull they have invested a lot of money in a lot of drivers and so far the real success of their programme has been Vettel (and a can of drink!), but as long as Vettel remains where he is there's really only one seat for another Red Bull driver to show their full potential, and at the moment that's taken by Webber.

RB lost Vettel to BMW as well and were lucky to get him back into STR. It makes you wonder how well thought out the project is if they can lose one of their bright stars to a rival team.

Although F1 is obviously a tough sport to succeed in I do think STR's treatment of Buemi/Alguersuari in particular has been poor. To dump them just before Xmas gives them little to no hope of finding any F1 drive for 2012. The supposed logic behind getting two fresh drivers is that STR is for F1 rookies and Buemi/Alguersuari are no longer rookies. If that is genuinely the case that would have been obvious six months ago so why the late notice?

[jens]

RB lost Vettel to BMW as well and were lucky to get him back into STR. It makes you wonder how well thought out the project is if they can lose one of their bright stars to a rival team.

I don't remember so precisely, but wasn't Vettel simply on loan from Red Bull to BMW?

Another thing is that back then Red Bull was no better than a midfield team and it was more difficult to attract special drivers, hence racing for Ferrari/McLaren/BMW perhaps looked like an ultimate goal for any up-and-coming driver as well. But now RBR is the top team and the situation has changed.

Although F1 is obviously a tough sport to succeed in I do think STR's treatment of Buemi/Alguersuari in particular has been poor. To dump them just before Xmas gives them little to no hope of finding any F1 drive for 2012. The supposed logic behind getting two fresh drivers is that STR is for F1 rookies and Buemi/Alguersuari are no longer rookies. If that is genuinely the case that would have been obvious six months ago so why the late notice?

I can agree with the claim that the way RB/STR dropped Alguersuari and Buemi was harsh and it would have been nice to inform them earlier. But the issue here is that F1 negotiations are often not straightforward and simple, leaving everyone content. Perhaps it wasn't nice that McLaren-Alonso found a settlement only in November '07, so that Alonso could find nothing better than Renault? Or John Watson couldn't find a drive for 1984 after getting a late boot from McLaren? I guess the reason for late notice is that STR were considering Alguersuari/Buemi for a long time, hence they didn't drop them earlier. Remember, we heard rumours about a possible Caterham-Ricciardo deal, but for whatever reason it didn't materialize.

[truefan72]

To be fair to Red Bull they have invested a lot of money in a lot of drivers and so far the real success of their programme has been Vettel (and a can of drink!), but as long as Vettel remains where he is there's really only one seat for another Red Bull driver to show their full potential, and at the moment that's taken by Webber. With so many drivers signed up it's inevitable that many will be discarded along the way.

I do wonder whether up and coming young drivers will be so willing to be a part of the Red Bull programme when they see drivers such as JA (who deserves more IMHO) out of a seat. I'm not sure he, or Buemi, could have done much more.

It's great having a ladder of talent but IMHO others have done a better job for the drivers involved than Red Bull. Look at the drivers who progressed through Paul Stewart Racing for example and excelled. Perhaps they did not do so in F1 (e.g. de Ferran, Franchitti) but PSR gave them an opportunity to develop and their careers benefitted.

Agreed.
If I was a young driver, I would stay away from the red bull "turnstile" program

I think that this was a pathetic decision by STR, then again I really don't think too highly of their management team anyway
They have consistently made mistakes with their driver selection and this one is no different.
The real problem is the car not the drivers
Now they will spend half the year figuring out the car, the other half having to drivers figuring out F1 and the team
Basically taking two steps back in an attempt to go one step forward
Who knows, In 2013 2 new drivers will probably be in place

As for Buemi and JA, I expect both to be back in F1 in the near future, possibly one at ferrari (Buemi)
and JA would do well to apply for a 3rd driver seat at Mclaren ( as I rate it 50/50 that Hamilton goes to Red Bull if RBR has another dominant season) or another team with aging drivers.

[wedge]

So which programme should a young driver prefer? Let's take a look at Gravity - d'Ambrosio got one year, but seems to be out of the game now.

Oh, and many drivers could have done more in their racing career, not just the Toro Rosso ones. You could turn it around by saying that without Red Bull's support and with the help of an alternative sponsor/driver scheme it is very unlikely either Alguersuari or Buemi would have had 3 years of F1 by now, perhaps no F1 at all!

Red Bull programme is hard, because there have been many drivers and the competition is tight. But it also gives more opportunities, because Red Bull has a special junior F1 team, where you can actually race. No other junior programme has such luxury of additional two F1 race seats just for you, which means that graduating to F1 would be more difficult via alternative junior programme.

Not just F1, but post-F1. Surely there's a degree of corporate responsibility?

For sure there was Scott Speed/NASCAR but that seems like an exception.

Would Jaime still get backing if he raced in a different series? Say for example a non-factory sportscar team? When WSC folded M-B helped Schumi into F1, when DTM folded in the late 90s M-B helped Dario Franchitti into CART.

[Malbec]

I don't remember so precisely, but wasn't Vettel simply on loan from Red Bull to BMW?

No, I believe he signed a separate contract with BMW who specifically released him so he could go to STR. That wouldn't have been the case had he been on loan.

I can agree with the claim that the way RB/STR dropped Alguersuari and Buemi was harsh and it would have been nice to inform them earlier. But the issue here is that F1 negotiations are often not straightforward and simple, leaving everyone content. Perhaps it wasn't nice that McLaren-Alonso found a settlement only in November '07, so that Alonso could find nothing better than Renault? Or John Watson couldn't find a drive for 1984 after getting a late boot from McLaren? I guess the reason for late notice is that STR were considering Alguersuari/Buemi for a long time, hence they didn't drop them earlier. Remember, we heard rumours about a possible Caterham-Ricciardo deal, but for whatever reason it didn't materialize.

I think most people who have followed F1 are perfectly aware that contract negotiations can be tough and complicated but you're missing something here. Both Alguersuari and Buemi were given the impression they would be carrying on for 2012 and therefore weren't looking elsewhere for drives. Buemi was in a Red Bull simulator at the time he got the call, why bother if he wasn't going to be driving for them in 2012?

With Alonso the driver initiated the move to Renault with his manager also managing the team he wanted to move to. John Watson was getting old and close to retirement anyway.

For the incoming rookies what message does this send? Start performing right away or we will terminate your career? That might work with some personalities but it does not with others and is not good personnel management. Look at how the pressure to perform got to Piquet Junior and what kind of behaviour that lead him to undertake. There are plenty of other less extreme examples with drivers trying too hard because of the pressure they are under and not performing to their best.

Also for STR this is not a good decision. Rookies need some time to bed in and learn the ropes which is why just about every midfield team takes one veteran and one rookie on. This will hurt the team in a very very closely contested part of the grid. Plus it is incredibly difficult to quantify just how good a driver really is unless there is an existing known driver to compare with, ie his teammate.

[jens]

I think most people who have followed F1 are perfectly aware that contract negotiations can be tough and complicated but you're missing something here. Both Alguersuari and Buemi were given the impression they would be carrying on for 2012 and therefore weren't looking elsewhere for drives. Buemi was in a Red Bull simulator at the time he got the call, why bother if he wasn't going to be driving for them in 2012?

I think a driver, who does NOT have a contract for next year, should always be checking alternative options as well. I'd think that the recent STR duo was aware that Ric/Ver were at least knocking on the door and they couldn't be so sure about being retained. Of course I don't know, what was going on behind the scenes or whether Tost/Marko were orally lying to the drivers that "don't worry, you'll get the contract". But otherwise a driver should always be busy to secure the future in any possible way unless he has a firm contract. As we have seen in many cases a driver and a team can be "close" to signing a deal, yet it is not going to materialize - one of the latest examples being Räikkönen and Williams.

For the incoming rookies what message does this send? Start performing right away or we will terminate your career?
---
Also for STR this is not a good decision. Rookies need some time to bed in and learn the ropes which is why just about every midfield team takes one veteran and one rookie on. This will hurt the team in a very very closely contested part of the grid. Plus it is incredibly difficult to quantify just how good a driver really is unless there is an existing known driver to compare with, ie his teammate.

I would agree if those drivers got a single season in F1. But they got three. Klien also got three. Liuzzi got less (two) and afterwards managed to secure a future elsewhere (Force India). I don't think in retrospect one can say Red Bull did a big mistake by letting them go.

As for STR themselves, they are a unique team in the sense of having a bit different purpose to other teams. The team is for "driver testing" rather than "team development". They are the only team to leave an impression that their ultimate goal is not really to win the world championship. We may disagree with such philosophy and keep arguing that it would be more efficient to have an experienced driver to lead the team forward, but they don't care about that aspect.

[Malbec]

I think a driver, who does NOT have a contract for next year, should always be checking alternative options as well. I'd think that the recent STR duo was aware that Ric/Ver were at least knocking on the door and they couldn't be so sure about being retained. Of course I don't know, what was going on behind the scenes or whether Tost/Marko were orally lying to the drivers that "don't worry, you'll get the contract".

So you're saying now that Alguersuari and Buemi were both uniquely stupid for drivers this season in not checking out alternatives? Both made it clear that they went into the off-season believing that they would be retained for the following season so the decision was a total shock to them. Do you think that there just might have been something said to them by Tost and Marko that made them think that? If your boss calls you one day about future plans involving you and the team (which both drivers I believe said) then don't you think its natural for them to feel that they would be retained regardless of the contract situation?

As for STR themselves, they are a unique team in the sense of having a bit different purpose to other teams. The team is for "driver testing" rather than "team development". They are the only team to leave an impression that their ultimate goal is not really to win the world championship. We may disagree with such philosophy and keep arguing that it would be more efficient to have an experienced driver to lead the team forward, but they don't care about that aspect.

Sorry but I completely disagree.

STR is there on the grid for the same reasons as everyone else, to make a profit by being productive for their owners and sponsors. Up to this season that has solely meant pleasing Red Bull and your argument is valid to that point. They are now partially owned by an Abu Dhabi based investment firm who have no interest in the Red Bull driver programme. If STR fall back and lose out on prize money because of driver choice do you think the Arab investors might get upset?

[jens]

So you're saying now that Alguersuari and Buemi were both uniquely stupid for drivers this season in not checking out alternatives? Both made it clear that they went into the off-season believing that they would be retained for the following season so the decision was a total shock to them. Do you think that there just might have been something said to them by Tost and Marko that made them think that? If your boss calls you one day about future plans involving you and the team (which both drivers I believe said) then don't you think its natural for them to feel that they would be retained regardless of the contract situation?

Sorry but I completely disagree.

STR is there on the grid for the same reasons as everyone else, to make a profit by being productive for their owners and sponsors. Up to this season that has solely meant pleasing Red Bull and your argument is valid to that point. They are now partially owned by an Abu Dhabi based investment firm who have no interest in the Red Bull driver programme. If STR fall back and lose out on prize money because of driver choice do you think the Arab investors might get upset?

You have some good thoughts. But I'm still unsure, how in the fickle world of F1 one can take an "oral confirmation" for certain, even when we have seen already contracted drivers getting sacked. I think Petrov felt comfortable at Renault/Lotus too, in addition he (allegedly) had a contract for 2012. Discussions about involvement in the future of a team can for instance include a third driver role, or whatever.

Fair point about the interest of Arab investors. But the interesting aspect here is that after the arrival of those investors Alguersuari's chances of staying in the team seemed to rise due to Spanish CEPSA (owned by the same Arabs) stickers on the car. Yet it wasn't important for them to keep Alguersuari and they are fine with the completely new line-up.

[CNR]

the 1 thing that none of us know is who is the better game player (red bull f1 simulator)
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