How do you see the future of rally?

[ToughMac]

A pity Prodrive couldn't entice them to back Sordo, then. Where is Sainz these days? Maybe Repsol will turn up on the Polo.

Or even turn up with Toyota if those rumours are indeed true. Repsol might have been a personal sponsor of Sainz but they were principle sponsor for TTE for a number of years in the late 80's to mid 90's.

[Maui J.]

+10. I dread the day when the food police and green lovey doveys try to save us from the taurine and caffine cans. You can just bet people will start hording cans of Monster under their beds and have a black market for head rushes.

For health warnings: makes it sound like energy drinks are being described as having the same health effects as crack.

Back to rally; I am disappointed that Rockstar and Monster haven't done more with WRC (ie have branding on a works car). There is still enough of an audience to make it worthwhile I feel. The GFC does not do us any favors however.

I don't think we are on the same playing field Plan9 (from Outer Space). You won't see me buying that crap in a can. Red Bull, Monster, Go Fast etc can spend as much as they want in sponsoring rallying. The more sponsorship the better for the wealth of the sport, but you wont find me spending a cent on their product.

I guess I'm in a minority when it comes to buying these products. Seems like the whole world will fall asleep if they don't have their daily dosage/s.

It's a little like smoking, once you're hooked it hard to stop. Brand advertising is all about getting the converted to swap to their product. Picking up additional new 'addicts' to their brand is a bonus.

So Plan9, the next time you go to the shop, buy 2 cans...feel free to drink my recommended daily intake. Or drink one and hide the other one under your bed.

[Plan9]

Lol I don't drink them often myself. 2 cans would be too much by anyone's standard. People over a certain age do not get them. You know you are the first person to guess the Ed Wood connection....

[Tomi]

The more sponsorship the better for the wealth of the sport, but you wont find me spending a cent on their product.

Agree, many sports rely on theese "energy crap", one other thing that amuses is the mercendise business, are people really so carried away from reality that they dont understand that they should be paid to wear commercials not the other way around.

[tfp]

I don't think we are on the same playing field Plan9 (from Outer Space). You won't see me buying that crap in a can. Red Bull, Monster, Go Fast etc can spend as much as they want in sponsoring rallying. The more sponsorship the better for the wealth of the sport, but you wont find me spending a cent on their product.

I guess I'm in a minority when it comes to buying these products. Seems like the whole world will fall asleep if they don't have their daily dosage/s.

It's a little like smoking, once you're hooked it hard to stop. Brand advertising is all about getting the converted to swap to their product. Picking up additional new 'addicts' to their brand is a bonus.

So Plan9, the next time you go to the shop, buy 2 cans...feel free to drink my recommended daily intake. Or drink one and hide the other one under your bed.

A bit harsh! After all, most people drink coffee and whie it may not be as bad, it still probably doesnt do you much good.

The trouble with the energy drink corporations and sponsership, most of the firms that throw their money around (red bull, monster etc) there are many other drinks that do the same job, but cost less than half the price!

Now thats what you call turd in a can

[Mitch555]

Future of rally outside of Europe is looking very scary and could fall apart in 10 years, maybe sooner.

FIA has once again failed to make a cost effective formula for the creation of 4wd cars- Argentina is probably the closest at the moment apart from their engine rule. The Evo is probably going to be stopped, leaving the WRX STI the only reasonable 4wd car affordable to be built. S2000 has failed in a way. Still way too expensive, too complicated and not relevant enough. It certainly wasn't the answer. The move to 1.6 Turbo S2000 was a decent move, but again, impossible for joe down the road to make one. The Evo and WRX STI form the backbone of most national championships outside of Europe. They are the pinnacle car of the sport for most nations (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Japan and China to name a few), and these are about to die, not good.

On the other hand, take a look at current homologation on FIA. It is a freaking horror show for anyone outside of Europe. Notice that the big Japanese and Korean manufacturers Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Kia are all practically absent from 2wd. Only ones there are Honda, Proton and Suzuki and even then, they are barely there.

So what can those outside of Europe do apart from import very expensive 2wd machines which in some cases are more expensive than a 5 year old Group N 4WD, and which are no where near suited to conditions of the Asia Pacific and Americas. It is ludicrous.

The writing for this region has been on the wall for a good 15 years. The move away from Group A I believe has been a bad move. Essentially anyone with a little bit of cash could convert their road car into a group N rally car, add a bit more and you had a full blown Group A international beater, dangerous in the hands of local drivers who could have a crack at running near the top level. Manufacturers through Group A were also encouraged to build the road going version. Look at the car market now, and the resurgence of hot hatches.

Since 1997, we've had the WRC class which is just way too expensive, with N4 the only competing ground for locals outside of Europe. 2WD wise, we've had the A7 Kit Cars, remarkably nearly all were European, the S1600 class... oh wait mostly European (only Suzuki, Fiesta and arguably the Corsa available in overseas markets, only the Suzukis in Asia), and now we move to Group R which again are geared for European cars.

Any lower class in rallying, below WRC has never been relevant to those outside of Europe, with the only category working being Group N4/PWRC. Hardly any 2WDs have homologation from Japan, Korea and China and none from the US-built market, only the Fiesta which arguably is European. The FIA has failed to come up with any formula what so ever to combat this issue, and if they don't address it, or come up with a way to make Group R drastically cheaper and more appealing to non-European manufacturers, we will be seeing the collapse of competitive national series outside of the European market. Once again, a classic case of FIA looking after their own region.

What would I do to fix it? Geez, look at Argentina, their model is nearly smack on, as was the old Group A/N model. A compromise between these two models for 4WD cars would see some interesting cars built, and make competitive rallying more open to manufacturers. 2WD wise, a lot needs to be done with the homologation process. It is obviously prohibitive to those outside of Europe. It also needs to address the fact that a lot of manufacturers from the Asia Pacific and North America don't have the performance behind them, so there also needs to be some kind of equaliser to encourage the building of the easily accessible 2WD.

Finally, homologation rules need to change so a models homologation lasts longer. We now see the Evo 8 out at the end of the year, and most Subarus up to N12 and the Evo 9 gone at the end of 2014. By then, we'll really be in strife in areas outside of Europe, especially with the possible discontinuation of the Evo.

So is the future of rally good? No way. The FIA continues to look after Europe but no where else with its vehicle rules. That is what will break the sport apart, event at national championship level.

[Mirek]

2000 has failed in a way. Still way too expensive, too complicated and not relevant enough. It certainly wasn't the answer.

S2000 is the most successful purpose-build formula of all times in rallying with some 300-350 cars built. It wasn't born in Europe but South Africa where it still works great. Why it didn't get elsewhere is another question but the mistake is not in the formula itself.

In no way it can be called too complicated. What particularly do You find complicated? Engine is simple production based one with 4-flaps, mechanical throttle, normal indirect injection, gearbox is simple mechanical sequential, diffs are stupid LSD, centre one even isn't present in most of the cars. Suspension is stupid McPhreson with just better dampers. Rear axle release is made by simple clutch. There is no hi-tech in S2000. Can You be specific what do You find so complicated there?

The move to 1.6 Turbo S2000 was a decent move, but again, impossible for joe down the road to make one.

Disagree with this. Here You contradict You previous stance. Move to 1.6T was big mistake. It made cars which are almost same with S2000 much more expensive with little gain in performance. That could have been done in way cheaper way by much simpler engine using larger restrictor. DI special-built engine is in no way simple and less complicated thing You ask for.

The Evo and WRX STI form the backbone of most national championships outside of Europe. They are the pinnacle car of the sport for most nations (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Japan and China to name a few), and these are about to die, not good.

That's more a question of general development in automobile market and politics. Years a go it was cool to make fast cars. Now it's cool to make so called green cars. With new emission standards and the general situation on automobile market these cars die. It's nothing FIA could change anyhow.

On the other hand, take a look at current homologation on FIA. It is a freaking horror show for anyone outside of Europe. Notice that the big Japanese and Korean manufacturers Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Kia are all practically absent from 2wd. Only ones there are Honda, Proton and Suzuki and even then, they are barely there.

Don't You think that they are absent because they don't see any reason to be present? Homologation process is not that big horror to drive the manufacturers away if they can gain something. In fact homologations help manufacturers to have better business from motorsport and they go against privateers able to build what they want.

So what can those outside of Europe do apart from import very expensive 2wd machines which in some cases are more expensive than a 5 year old Group N 4WD, and which are no where near suited to conditions of the Asia Pacific and Americas. It is ludicrous.

It's normal that new thing able to win its class is expensive in comparison with old thing which is not able to win in its class. It's not ridiculous. These 2WD cars have very large market in Europe so they are produced. If there was some market outside Europe local manufacturers would sure produce cars for it.

The writing for this region has been on the wall for a good 15 years. The move away from Group A I believe has been a bad move. Essentially anyone with a little bit of cash could convert their road car into a group N rally car, add a bit more and you had a full blown Group A international beater, dangerous in the hands of local drivers who could have a crack at running near the top level. Manufacturers through Group A were also encouraged to build the road going version. Look at the car market now, and the resurgence of hot hatches.

You are changing cause and consequence here. The gr.A died because manufacturers were no longer interested in building road going rally cars not vice versa. Manufacturers wanted to leave gr.A away and to take WRC way instead. For them building few special-purpose mahines is way less expensive and brings same benefits compared to spending billions in development, production, sale facilities, training of stuff, after-sale service etc. To produce a stock car is incredibly huge process compared to any racing activity. Especially now when low-emissions rule the world the new gr.A is complete utopia.

Since 1997, we've had the WRC class which is just way too expensive, with N4 the only competing ground for locals outside of Europe. 2WD wise, we've had the A7 Kit Cars, remarkably nearly all were European, the S1600 class... oh wait mostly European (only Suzuki, Fiesta and arguably the Corsa available in overseas markets, only the Suzukis in Asia), and now we move to Group R which again are geared for European cars.

WRC was in fact less expensive but for manufacturers not for privateers. That's the problem of interests. Manufacturers wants something different than privateers but it's manufacturers who rules the system so it happened like that. But even WRC was doing well among privateers until it was banned from regional championships. That was the biggest mistake from FIA in last years.

Any lower class in rallying, below WRC has never been relevant to those outside of Europe, with the only category working being Group N4/PWRC. Hardly any 2WDs have homologation from Japan, Korea and China and none from the US-built market, only the Fiesta which arguably is European. The FIA has failed to come up with any formula what so ever to combat this issue, and if they don't address it, or come up with a way to make Group R drastically cheaper and more appealing to non-European manufacturers, we will be seeing the collapse of competitive national series outside of the European market. Once again, a classic case of FIA looking after their own region.

Most of the Europe competes on asphalt. That itself makes the market completely different to others. Most of the manufacturers are located in Europe and together with the fact rallying has the biggest tradition in Europe it makes the most important battlefield also for manufacturers so they produce machines suitable for areas of their interest.

What would I do to fix it? Geez, look at Argentina, their model is nearly smack on, as was the old Group A/N model. A compromise between these two models for 4WD cars would see some interesting cars built, and make competitive rallying more open to manufacturers.

Argentinian way is interesting only for privateers. To use only a body from a car of manufacturer and to "fill" it with single components can never attract manufacturers (not speaking about importers, that's different case). Again a clash of interest. Argentina has no own manufacturers but in Europe there are many and those are fighting with each other for ages so the situation is different. In other areas the Argentinian way can work, I agree with that.

2WD wise, a lot needs to be done with the homologation process. It is obviously prohibitive to those outside of Europe. It also needs to address the fact that a lot of manufacturers from the Asia Pacific and North America don't have the performance behind them, so there also needs to be some kind of equaliser to encourage the building of the easily accessible 2WD.

How prohibitive the rules are? Be specific, please. What equaliser are You speaking about? Rules itself are equaliser because they are same for all. No rules say You have to make everything the top possible spec. You can always build cheaper and simpler car. Yourself You said there is no competition in 2WD outside Europe so how can You make it easier to access for manufacturer than that? You mean that to join battle of long-established manufacturers in Europe is easier than to come with a new car somewhere with no competition at all? I don't share this view. It's again a question of profit. If manufacturers can gain something from that they would do it. Probably there is very little interest of general public into rallying outside Europe (Argentina, South Africa and few other locations). Where there is public interest the market for cars exists and a lot of cars as well.

Finally, homologation rules need to change so a models homologation lasts longer. We now see the Evo 8 out at the end of the year, and most Subarus up to N12 and the Evo 9 gone at the end of 2014. By then, we'll really be in strife in areas outside of Europe, especially with the possible discontinuation of the Evo.

No need for change in this. Any manufacturer can prolong homologation as long as it wants. Watch for example Honda Civic VTi. The car is old like hell and still it is valid for FIA events.

But I would also preferred just simple rules without any homologations like in rallycross for example but its manufacturers whose interest are guarded by homolgations so they will last long...

So is the future of rally good? No way. The FIA continues to look after Europe but no where else with its vehicle rules. That is what will break the sport apart, event at national championship level.

That's quite a paranoya in my opinion. All national championships are ruled by national authorities not FIA. Those can do what they want like they did in Argentina and many other countries.

[Barreis]

Maybe he thought about prices of S2000 cars. In smaller countries national champs can not afford it.

[Coach 2]

All national championships are ruled by national authorities not FIA. Those can do what they want like they did in Argentina and many other countries.

It is often the problem lies here. The national associations are not creative enough.
FIA only adds guidelines for what should be valid for international championships. And international championships must be adapted to the cars produced at any time.

[bluuford]

Since 1997, we've had the WRC class which is just way too expensive, with N4 the only competing ground for locals outside of Europe. 2WD wise, we've had the A7 Kit Cars, remarkably nearly all were European, the S1600 class... oh wait mostly European (only Suzuki, Fiesta and arguably the Corsa available in overseas markets, only the Suzukis in Asia), and now we move to Group R which again are geared for European cars.

I have noticed that old WRC-s are pretty popular and also quite affordable on national championships (where they are allowed) by now. Was it 13 WRC-s at the start in France yeserday 11 of them are old WRC-s? For example, newest, well maintained WRC, 2008 Focus can be bought with 225 000 EUR (MM-Motorsport is selling one right now) which is nearly 20% cheaper than the best S2000 cars now. Older WRC-s much cheaper and pretty spectacular as well. So, I think that one of the future ways for local championships is indeed to use outdated cars rather than using newest cars (which homolagtions are finished). Well their maintanace costs might be worse, that is the downside. And it also brings some more variety to the start list. That might not be interesting for the sponsors who wnat to win the rally with S2000 car, but should they? Local events should be for practicing and they can go to IRC, if they want, to win with S2000. They can still show that they are fastest non WRC on their village.
Complicated, but it is nice to see Impreza WRC, C4 WRC, Mini WRC, Fiesta WRC, Focus WRC, 307 WRC, 207 WRC in one event, different sounds, styles, etc.