MotoGP: Round 1 - Qatar

[CaptainRaiden]

Totally forgot about this thread!

I think a lot of what you're both discussing depends on public perception of the riders.

Casey has, certainly with Ducati, always been a bit of a 'lone gunman' and doesn't much care for having a PR face - his mentality is "I don't care if you hate me, I'm here to win and that's all". Rossi has his self-created facade(s) which have endeared him rather more to the [casual] public, although sometimes that slips - like his surprise outburst at the start of this year about Casey and Jorge. Jorge, Dani and Ben are different again in their own ways. As for the different between 'whining' and 'telling it like it is', again that's a matter of personal interpretation. I will shamelessly bring in a national generalisation and say that Aussies tend to be pretty good at telling it like it is (see also: the enduring popularity of Anthony West, and Mark Webber in F1).

I don't think Rossi's personna is a facade. In fact, I think Rossi and Casey are quite alike in the sense that they both have refused to shake hands with a rival after the race. Although Rossi's reaction was simply disdain for Gibernau, Stoner's was more childish and annoyance over getting beaten by Rossi at a race where he was 1.5 seconds faster than the field in practice. I don't know about nationalities, but I do think both of them are sore losers. Well, here's the if you wouldn't hate to lose, you would never be a winner philosophy. Rossi is globally well liked, first because of his talent and the championships he has won, and secondly because of the lanky, fun loving personna that he I guess has demonstrated from his outrageous post race celebrations, which Lorenzo now tries to copy.

I wouldn't want to piss off any Australians here, but as far as Ant West and Mark Webber go, I'm sorry, but the bad luck, bad machinery card can only be played this many times. While Ant West is an exceptional wet weather rider, he's quite ordinary in the dry. And Mark Webber has been consistently outperformed by Vettel. The only way Mark manages to beat Vettel sometimes is when he has a bad day.

[CaptainRaiden]

Rossi beat Lorenzo as a rookie (as expected) and again in Jorges second year but Lorenzo was stronger and closer. A lot of people believe that Jorge improved again in 2010 but has now gone passed Rossi (he beat Rossi 2 times out of three before Rossi's broken leg) and say that Rossi is running away from a competitive teammate he couldn't break mentally. The only way for either of them to beat the other without excuse is on the same equipment. That is where the equal challenge lies.
The move to Ducati is a calculated gamble for Rossi. It will be hard work and may not be as successful as staying with Yamaha but if it does go pear-shaped then the blame will be with Ducati but if they win then the credit will go to Rossi and JB's brilliance.

You can't base your opinion of how much Jorge improved compared to Rossi in 2010 based on just three races. The rest of the season was Rossi's injury, and then recovering from it. Yes, Jorge was very good at Jerez and Le mans last year, but Rossi is known to come back stronger during the middle of the season and especially towards the end of a championship season in the way he adjusts his riding, setup and starts to put pressure on his main rivals, like what he did with Biaggi before, with Gibernau in 2004 when it seemed he would be running away with the championship after winning 2 out of the first three races, with Stoner in 2008, the kind of kamikaze racing at Laguna Seca that broke Stoner mentally, at least for that year, and then in 2009 he put pressure on Lorenzo which seemed to break him as well. It's surprising Ninja, I was sure that at least you would know, from your experience of watching grand prix racing in the last decade, that you can't count Rossi out until the final race of the season.

And I would reiterate again that Rossi has nothing more to prove at Yamaha. He has spent seven dominant years with them, reeling in 4 world championships. Also, he won the 500cc World Championship in his second year on the Honda NSR, beating the likes of more experienced riders like reigning champion Kenny Roberts Jr. and Max Biaggi in the process. So, there is no excuse for Lorenzo that he couldn't win it in his second year. He was beaten fair and square by Rossi, end of story. If he was really so good, he should have done it. In 2008 Jorge was too crash prone, in 2009 he was consistent, fast, but not as fast as Rossi, 2010 we would never know what would have been the outcome if Rossi hadn't missed 4 races, and spent the rest of the year riding on painkillers and recovering. Besides, once Dani Pedrosa turned on the kill switch, Lorenzo was struggling and only squeaked out the championship in the second last race of the season. He should have won it by a country mile on the best bike on the grid, and with Rossi out.

So, the record still stands 2-1 head to head between Rossi and Lorenzo, regardless of injuries to both of them. Nothing more to prove for Rossi on the M1, and winning on the crap handling Ducati at this point would be a MUCH bigger accomplishment.

[NinjaMaster]

You can't base your opinion of how much Jorge improved compared to Rossi in 2010 based on just three races. The rest of the season was Rossi's injury, and then recovering from it. Yes, Jorge was very good at Jerez and Le mans last year, but Rossi is known to come back stronger during the middle of the season and especially towards the end of a championship season in the way he adjusts his riding, setup and starts to put pressure on his main rivals, like what he did with Biaggi before, with Gibernau in 2004 when it seemed he would be running away with the championship after winning 2 out of the first three races, with Stoner in 2008, the kind of kamikaze racing at Laguna Seca that broke Stoner mentally, at least for that year, and then in 2009 he put pressure on Lorenzo which seemed to break him as well. It's surprising Ninja, I was sure that at least you would know, from your experience of watching grand prix racing in the last decade, that you can't count Rossi out until the final race of the season.

And I would reiterate again that Rossi has nothing more to prove at Yamaha. He has spent seven dominant years with them, reeling in 4 world championships. Also, he won the 500cc World Championship in his second year on the Honda NSR, beating the likes of more experienced riders like reigning champion Kenny Roberts Jr. and Max Biaggi in the process. So, there is no excuse for Lorenzo that he couldn't win it in his second year. He was beaten fair and square by Rossi, end of story. If he was really so good, he should have done it. In 2008 Jorge was too crash prone, in 2009 he was consistent, fast, but not as fast as Rossi, 2010 we would never know what would have been the outcome if Rossi hadn't missed 4 races, and spent the rest of the year riding on painkillers and recovering. Besides, once Dani Pedrosa turned on the kill switch, Lorenzo was struggling and only squeaked out the championship in the second last race of the season. He should have won it by a country mile on the best bike on the grid, and with Rossi out.

So, the record still stands 2-1 head to head between Rossi and Lorenzo, regardless of injuries to both of them. Nothing more to prove for Rossi on the M1, and winning on the crap handling Ducati at this point would be a MUCH bigger accomplishment.

X, I haven't counted Rossi out at all and I don't know where you get that assumption from. He is one of the 'aliens' (I'm getting sick of that term) but for mine, he's clearly no longer the definitive top dog but definately still competitive. In my opinion, Stoner and Lorenzo are now marginally ahead of him and Pedrosa is faster on raw speed but Rossi is a better 'racer' than Dani. Vale should still be a contender for at least the next couple of years.

Now X, I know that you don't believe for a second that beating Biaggi and KRJR (as good as they were) is anywhere near as tough a nut to crack as beating Rossi in the second year of MotoGP (as Stoner did). Jorge rode brilliantly last year and deserved the title more than anyone else. And whilst I agree that Rossi had nothing left to prove with Yamaha, I believe he still had as much challenge in remaining Lorenzo's teammate at Yamaha as riding on the already race winning Ducati. Either option, I think, is a strong challenge for him.

[CaptainRaiden]

X, I haven't counted Rossi out at all and I don't know where you get that assumption from. He is one of the 'aliens' (I'm getting sick of that term) but for mine, he's clearly no longer the definitive top dog but definately still competitive. In my opinion, Stoner and Lorenzo are now marginally ahead of him and Pedrosa is faster on raw speed but Rossi is a better 'racer' than Dani. Vale should still be a contender for at least the next couple of years.

Now X, I know that you don't believe for a second that beating Biaggi and KRJR (as good as they were) is anywhere near as tough a nut to crack as beating Rossi in the second year of MotoGP (as Stoner did). Jorge rode brilliantly last year and deserved the title more than anyone else. And whilst I agree that Rossi had nothing left to prove with Yamaha, I believe he still had as much challenge in remaining Lorenzo's teammate at Yamaha as riding on the already race winning Ducati. Either option, I think, is a strong challenge for him.

Well, I think Rossi is still the top dog, and given the right machinery, and in 100% health, would again be unbeatable. I think he has that X factor which probably Stoner and Lorenzo lack. All just my humble opinion. Also, the Ducati may be a race winner, but not a championship winning bike. So, Lorenzo is riding a championship winning M1, while Rossi is riding the 4th best bike of 2010, and that was in Casey Stoner's hands. If Rossi can beat Lorenzo riding a Ducati, which he very nearly did at Jerez, then that is definitely a much bigger challenge.

I think we definitely have two very different opinions Ninja. I think Rossi is still the best, you don't, let's just leave it at that. Great discussion though.

[NinjaMaster]

Cheers cobber, it's nice to have a discussion, even a passionate one, that doesn't degenerate into childish name calling.