Alms 2010

[Mark in Oshawa]

Still haven't figured out what the ACO did to Bob in a previous life..lol..or this one.

[Bob Riebe]

Still haven't figured out what the ACO did to Bob in a previous life..lol..or this one.

They took an incredibly exciting, educational sport (main reason I studied auto mech.), and turned into a pointless contrived political farce. They are the

[dj4monie]

Bob may not agree with what the ACO has historical done, however they connected Sportscar Racing to the ONE Crown Jewel it has and the reason most OEM's start programs.

Actually the diesel rules were put in to encourage diesel powered cars, it worked, just not for the privater...

I will agree with you on those grounds.

INDY is a shell of itself in terms of importance. Let me put it this way, even Sato will likely not get a front line F1 ride, instead of announcing his intentions of running in the IRL, he's holding out hope that he'll get a F1 even it means he'll never be in the running for a podium. Where he's been linked to both Andretti and De Ferran and surely would be need the front at Indy or any IRL event, he rather focus on F1...

IRL has lost its luster period. Look at how crowded DTM got over the years with F3 drivers and only Benz has an F1 team!

[Mark in Oshawa]

They took an incredibly exciting, educational sport (main reason I studied auto mech.), and turned into a pointless contrived political farce. They are the

They are evil because the made rules that restrict speed, power and control the race cars. Well they did it when they outlawed the 7 liter Ford GT's in the late 60's. They did it again in the 70's and they have always tinkered with the rules. The fact is if they ran very little rules, the cars would reach speeds that may reach a point where insurance for the race wouldn't be in the offing. The same reason the restrictor plates are in NASCAR at Dega and Daytona, and the same reason F1 motors keep getting shrunk.

The fact is Bob you want no real rules in your racing and want lots of variety and the sad fact those days are gone forever, and I don't care what governing body you find. Sportscar racing is not like it was in the 80's or 70's just like the Indy Cars aren't, the NASCAR's aren't and the F1 cars are different. The box isn't expanding no more. We will never see faster cars, we will just see more clever solutions to make more restrictive cars go faster back up to what we see now. There is lots of room for techincal growth. Fuel mileage restrictions cause r and d to be done with Diesels and gas motors to get better mileage. There is rules out there to encourage hybrid research and I bet there is a clause or two for KERS development.

There is lots of room for innovative ideas and new technologies. Just don't look to see anyone hauling down Mulsanne at 300mph.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]They are evil because the made rules that restrict speed, power and control the race cars . Well they did it when they outlawed the 7 liter Ford GT's in the late 60's. They did it again in the 70's and they have always tinkered with the rules. (Show me the rules that CONTROLLED the cars.)

You are grabbing at straws; they changed restrictions/boundaries on displacement in SOME classes, in some series.

In the seventies the IMSA & SCCA GT rules RELAXED the displacement restrictions, till in the end, near ANY Detroit engine that was in the parts book was legal. That is why some Corvettes were using the all-alloy ex-Can-Am engines. Which did no good as the Trannies were way too weak for the power produced.

The fact is Bob you want no real rules in your racing . You like to keep repeating that flatulance, show me where I ever said that.
It just bugs you that I will not bow down and accept this contrived BS, as more than amateur SCCA National type spec. racing. Which is exactly what it is.
They are serving butt-fudge and you are going mmm-mmm-mmm, because you think it is chocolate fudge.

[Tom206wrc]

According to L'Equipe of today, both american teams Highcroft and de Ferran would be among the candidates list to run the 4th Peugeot 908 at the 24h of Le Mans

Even more interesting, if one of these teams would be chosen by Peugeot, they would run full 2010 ALMS with the diesel coupé

Within two weeks we could know Peugeot's definitive choice, and I personally hope for DE FERRAN

[Mark in Oshawa]

[quote=Bob Riebe]

They are evil because the made rules that restrict speed, power and control the race cars . Well they did it when they outlawed the 7 liter Ford GT's in the late 60's. They did it again in the 70's and they have always tinkered with the rules. (Show me the rules that CONTROLLED the cars.)

You are grabbing at straws; they changed restrictions/boundaries on displacement in SOME classes, in some series.

In the seventies the IMSA & SCCA GT rules RELAXED the displacement restrictions, till in the end, near ANY Detroit engine that was in the parts book was legal. That is why some Corvettes were using the all-alloy ex-Can-Am engines. Which did no good as the Trannies were way too weak for the power produced.

The fact is Bob you want no real rules in your racing . You like to keep repeating that flatulance, show me where I ever said that.
It just bugs you that I will not bow down and accept this contrived BS, as more than amateur SCCA National type spec. racing. Which is exactly what it is.
They are serving butt-fudge and you are going mmm-mmm-mmm, because you think it is chocolate fudge.

[/quote:3rx438c5]

Show me where I have a rule book from the 60's. The point I am making is every series has rules, and restricts car dimensions, layouts, engine sizes etc. You keep going back to the 70's. Those cars were dangerous so it is obvious the rules of today have some value.

I am with you I would like to see more open specs for engines, layouts and the like. That said, every series has rules, they all tinker with them for various reasons, and to say the ACO is any worse or better than SCCA Pro Racing, IMSA, NASCAR, IRL or the FIA for their series is not right. We don't live in an era where it is acceptable to have cars that don't protect the driver. Cars from the 70's were better than the 60's but still pretty woeful. We cannot go back there on the technical side either. With wind tunnels, CAD design, modern engine technology, we have to have that box a lot tighter....because they would be screaming along at stupid speeds if we didn't...

[dj4monie]

[quote=Mark in Oshawa]

Show me where I have a rule book from the 60's. The point I am making is every series has rules, and restricts car dimensions, layouts, engine sizes etc. You keep going back to the 70's. Those cars were dangerous so it is obvious the rules of today have some value.

I am with you I would like to see more open specs for engines, layouts and the like. That said, every series has rules, they all tinker with them for various reasons, and to say the ACO is any worse or better than SCCA Pro Racing, IMSA, NASCAR, IRL or the FIA for their series is not right. We don't live in an era where it is acceptable to have cars that don't protect the driver. Cars from the 70's were better than the 60's but still pretty woeful. We cannot go back there on the technical side either. With wind tunnels, CAD design, modern engine technology, we have to have that box a lot tighter....because they would be screaming along at stupid speeds if we didn't...

[/quote:36p99b4x]

The cars are better the death toll keeps score and aside from a few notable it was really blunt force that ended the lives of many drivers, unlike the olden days when pure speed and lack of protection usually killed drivers.

After all both Clark and Donahue died because of tire failure, something you rarely see with the introduction radial tires. The downside of radial tires is the stiffer side walls which allow much higher cornering speeds when combined with the downforce generated by modern aero dynamics = wide open throttle running on ovals see Tony Renna and a few other Indy Car drivers.

They wouldn't keep asking Herman Tilke to design stop and start circuits if they felt the cars were too slow for tracks designed in the 50's and 60's.

Look at Monza, its still brutally fast despite the chicanes and the Parabolica is a "Man's corner". So is the "Kink" at Road America, etc, etc

If you left designers to their own devices where F1 designer largely blame the cars lack of success on the fleshy creature behind the wheel and not their own design flaws with no regulation, the races would drive themselves by remote, it would be the only save way to handle the seriously high corning g's that would be generated by a modern 1000hp, ground-effect, active aero-dynamic car.

Noticed I mentioned those technologies -

Active Aero was banned by F1 and Sports Car Racing in the 90's

Active Suspension was banned by F1 and Sports Car Racing in the 90's

Ground Effect eliminated from open wheel and sports cars by the 2007 with the end of the CART series.

To counter that, engineers work3e more and more with wind tunnels and CFD. They generate as much downforce over and around the car as they did in the days of ground effects without the negative accept of introducing drag into the equation.

Bob hasn't been paying attention but they are going through the Porsche Curves faster now than during the Group C era...

[dj4monie]

According to L'Equipe of today, both american teams Highcroft and de Ferran would be among the candidates list to run the 4th Peugeot 908 at the 24h of Le Mans

Even more interesting, if one of these teams would be chosen by Peugeot, they would run full 2010 ALMS with the diesel coupé

Within two weeks we could know Peugeot's definitive choice, and I personally hope for DE FERRAN

I find this bit of news terribly interesting. De Ferrans long range goal is to run Le Mans. Highcroft's short term goal is to be at Le Mans. As ALMS Champions, they get an automatic invite.

This means either investing with Writh for the low drag configuration needed to be competitive at La Sarthe.

or as you say get in contact with Peugeot and ask if you can "borrow" one of their cars.

We shall see what results come of this.

[Jag_Warrior]

I find this bit of news terribly interesting. De Ferrans long range goal is to run Le Mans. Highcroft's short term goal is to be at Le Mans. As ALMS Champions, they get an automatic invite.

This means either investing with Writh for the low drag configuration needed to be competitive at La Sarthe.

or as you say get in contact with Peugeot and ask if you can "borrow" one of their cars.

We shall see what results come of this.

I never thought about this before. But even if they switched to another manufacturer, it's the team that gets the invitation. So could a champion P1 team use its invitation to race say, a GT car for Le Mans or vice versa?