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Hi all, Long time since I've posted on here, great to be back. I've just seen this on the bbc website. Max to replace Kvyat at red bull. I think this is move so Red bull get to keep hold of Max. They've just found an reason to replace him. Thoughts?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36206848
Great for Max, he's obviously got a great talent. I'm concerned about Sainz, though - last yeat he was a match for Verstappen, only to be let down by reliability. I'm worried that he might go the Buemi or Alguersuari route. :(
Seems like quite the over-reaction doesn't it. But as you say, the collision in Sochi is surely a convenient excuse to do something they wanted to do for other reasons.
Wow... that's a huge development. I thought it would definitely happen at the end of the season but not right now.
I agree that It has to be to keep a hold of him. Ferrari would probably have given him Kimi's seat.
Max is a huge talent and a future WDC for sure but I feel a bit sorry for Kyviat, he messed up big time in Sochi but he didn't quite deserve that.
Ric and Max? Now that is a very strong driver line up imo. I think Ric will find Max to be a real threat to his No1 driver position next year. Looking forward to it...
I heard this might be in the works a couple of days ago but I didn't believe it. Then again, with a disgusting bunch such as RBR it's hardly a surprise.
This an absurd over-reaction. It just shows really what RBR are and that they haven't learned a thing from their whole saga with Renault last year. Instead of working with Kvyat after a tough race in Russia where he made one, they just throw the toys out of the pram and say you're done, much like they did with Renault last year. I really hate them as a team and I stand by my assertion that F1 would be better off without them. I'm still of the opinion that Kvyat was to blame for the first corner shunt with Vettel but there was nothing he could have done about hitting him the second time, Vettel was simply slower through the corner than could be expected.
As for Max, this could be a good or incredibly bad thing. He may now move on and excel at RBR or he may crash and burn. He's only 18 years and I'm skeptical that, even with all the talent he so clearly has, if he can cope with the pressure that is going to be bestowed upon him. He's either going to crash and burn or shine. I hope for him it's the latter.
This has to be the only reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by f1kid1987
Kvyat wasn't as fast as Ricciardo, but they are clearly using the Russian GP crashes as an excuse to do what they wanted to do regardless.
Yes, totally agree. RB's handling of Kvyat will also add huge pressure on him to do well and at short notice.
If I was Max I think I'd rather have gone to Ferrari or Merc after seeing how ruthless they are prepared to be. Very unpleasant.
Hold your horses folks. Kvyat hasn't been exactly fired from the Red Bull organization. According to BBC:
"Kvyat, who crashed into Ferrari's Sebastian Vettel twice within two corners at his home grand prix, has been dropped to junior team Toro Rosso. "
That's a really interesting development because not only this punishes Kvyat, but it also puts Kvyat, Sainz, and Verstappen under a serious test. If Verstappen performs no better than Kvyat in Red Bull, then you know what will happen with Verstappen next season. Likewise, if Sainz fails to beat Kvyat the remaining races this season, you also know what happens. On the other hand, if Kvyat manages to beat say Ricciardo a few times in the rest of season, then he might get a contract at one of the Red Bull teams for another year. I think this is brilliant. This is why I like RedBull. They have been bringing the best and the most ambitious talent into F1 for almost a decade now.
No driver worth any talent should drive for RBR.
Ricciardo will be gone at the end of the season. No reason to hang around such a team
I figured the reason they moved Verstappen to Red Bull was because of Kyvat crashing into Vettel twice. Who knows, I could be wrong. Good for Verstappen though.
I am glad that Kvyat is getting another chance. Too many drivers have been dumped without ever getting this type of chance. I hope is runs with it.
They wouldn't have needed a reason. All Red Bull drivers (both RBR and STR) have a clause in their contract that allows for Red Bull to move them between both teams as needed. They could have simply switched without a reason, but Kvyat's utter blackout at Sochi gave them a great excuse to do it without having to answer any questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by f1kid1987
Kvyat was consistently about 0.6 to 0.8 seconds slower than RIC in all races this year and most races last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
An annoying brat driving a RBR.I haven't seen that in over an year now.
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I've just become a bigger fan of Ricciardo. Whup up on this front-runner than bail from RBR, and go to a real team like Williams, McLaren, or Ferrari. I never have liked this team, they are smug when they win, and just plain ugly when things aren't going their way. IMO they have been a rather distasteful institution in F1. Than again things could change for the better in coming years
LOL, that just takes the cake...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
Williams have a habit of dumping world champions right after they win the title (Mansell, Hill, Piquet). McLaren are run by a control freak who even demands that drivers relinquish the trophies they have won, Sauber is run by a Kamikaze woman who sells two seats to four people, Force India is run by two criminals, one of which is in jail and the other is on the run, and you call RB a 'rather distasteful institution'? Let's face it. You hate RB because they made a guy you don't like win four titles, that's the only thing they did wrong.
I've got nothing against Seb, in fact I admire him!
Precisely. One can't but admire a four time WDC, even if he did get his ass handed to him by Danny Boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
That is what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Not really surprising, as Ricciardo was also faster than Vettel when they were team mates.
Don't get the Red Bull hate here. They are ruthless, but are doing the right thing, because Verstappen is more talented than Kvyat. And they need every point they can get in battle with Williams for P3 in WCC.
Finally something exciting and refreshing in otherwise somewhat boring modern F1 - a battle between two giants, great talents. Red Bull's chassis is also great, potentially the only one, which can take the fight to Mercedes. Shame they don't have engine to complement it, but such is the state of affairs sadly...
He did get his ass handed byQuote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
a) the team, which stole his potential victory at Canada (and apologized afterwards)
b) the car which kept breaking down while RIC's didn't. Even Marko admitted that and that says a lot.
c) the fact that they had to change the chassis three times throughout the year.
d) he went into the season with a massive mileage deficit as he also had the majority of mechanicals during the abysmal winter tests and RIC got the entire Bahrain test with Vettel not running at all.
There is no doubt that Danny got used to the different characteristics of the car quicker than Seb, but the picture is massively skewed by the fact that Vettel's year was like Lewis' start to 2016. He had all the bad luck in 2014. If you look at the second half of the 2014 season, you'll see that there wasn't much in between them. RIC is good, but he is not championship material, because he lacks the consistency. He is brilliant in one race and rather anonymous in the next. He was looking good in 2014, but a year later, against Kvyat he looked distinctly beatable while Vettel was back to his old self.
People seem to forget that the great Ayrton Senna once barely beat Berger by a single point. There were only five races in 1992 in which both Maccas finished and Berger finished higher than Senna in three of them. Long story short: Being handed your ass and having a bad season are not the same thing. Kimi Räikkönen was handed his ass, first by Alonso then by Vettel, but looking at 2015 you can easily see that Seb hadn't forgotten how to drive. He had just inherited Webbers car.
And let's not forget the infamous 2011 season when Button ended 2nd in WDC and clearly dominant over his now three times world champion teammate. According to Button himself, this was the best season he had in all of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
In all fairness to Kimi he had his ass also handed to him the year after he won the WDC by Felipe as well! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
2014 Red Bull Statistics:Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Qualifying: Ricciardo 12 - 7
Race finish: Ricciardo 11 - 3
Laps ahead: Ricciardo 483 - 448
Points: Ricciardo 238 - 167
Even accounting for reliability and racing incidents that isn't really that close.
Be that as it may, that would put Ricciardo ahead of Raikkonen on current form, well ahead of Webber when he was Vettel's team-mate (Mark admits this).Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
He beat the reigning 4-time World Champion in the same car, which was not a championship winning machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Sometimes I think you believe that no one is better than Vettel, and create your reasoning from there.
For the record, Ricciardo's 2016 results:
Australia: 4th
Bahrain: 4th
China: 4th (after getting a puncture when leading, then dropping back to 17th)
Russia: 11th (after Turn 2 incident that wrecked his race)
There is no other meaningful comparison between Ricciardo and Vettel in the same car, bad season or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Kimi Raikkonen hasn't driven a great race since 2013 when Grosjean was his team-mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
He is easily the most overrated and overpaid driver on the grid.
And let's not forget Singapore qualifying where Vettel came over the radio to the pitwall apologising for yet another botched qualifying lap, stating that every time he tries to push he loses it. That was well into the second half of the season at that point, you'd think Vettel would have been used to the new car characteristics by then lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
Ass handed might be the wrong description, perhaps humiliated by Danny would be more apt!
Ricciardo in my book is a clear top driver, part of the "big quartet", which consists of Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, and him. Though Rosberg, Button and Verstappen aren't far off these. Now Max is the big questionmark. Clearly very talented, but how much so? Could he even join the very elite, making it a 'big 5'! Can't wait to find out. Though initially Danny Ric should have the edge.
There were some races in which Kvyat beat Ricciardo, but on most occasions (un)reliability beat Ricciardo last year. All top drivers have some 'off-days', but overall I have no doubt Daniel performed at a very high level. His race pace was usually better than Kvyat's.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
AS I said, it was a bad season and in no way comparaböe to how Vettel drove in 2013 and again 2015. It seems people look only at the points and not how it came about. In that regard Lewis was humiliated by Button in 2011 and lets not forget that over the entire three years Button and Hamilton were at McLaren, Button scored more points too. Boy, that guy must be hopeless...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I couldnt believe it when I first read about the switch, I cant imagine how Kvyat will be feeling when he starts the next race back at Torro Rosso. Hope he can pick himself up although I am not sure he has the pace to be a WDC in the future, with that in mind Redbull made a good shout. Mad Max looks like he could be a bit special and he has so much time ahead of him, will be really interesting to see how he does against Danny, I don't think he is any faster than Sainz but he is that much younger that by the time he is the same age as Sainz he will probably a good step faster.
Hamilton outscored Button 2/3 years they were teammates together. And Hamilton has won a race with every car he has driven in F1, so clearly not as useless as Vettel. Vettel had the second best car on the grid in 2014 and still couldn't win a race while his teammate won 3. But yes, 2011 was a whopper for Lewis considering his very high standards but at least he had the courage to stay and fight the next year, to come back and beat Button. That showed character, unlike Vettel who just tucked tail and ran whimpering to Ferrari rather than facing up to the challenge of taking on the faster Ricciardo.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
That shows how much you know about F1 - the words 'nuff anything' spring to mind. Lewis stayed at McLaren because he had nowhere else to go. You saw in 2012 how quickly that changed when he took the first offer he got. Vettel had publically stated when he was still at Toro Rosso that the ultimate goal was to get into a Ferrari seat. In 2014 he had an offer and he took it because a performance clause allowed him to accept Ferrari's offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
What I really laughed loudest about was mentioning Lewis Hamilton and the word character in the same sentence. You can't be serious. The only one with less character is Alonso, and that guy took part in race fixing and blackmailed his team. Granted, Lewis' deliberately lying to the stewards and the press at Melbourne 2009, leaking team telemetry data and leaking details of a confidential meeting in Spa '14 might look a bit pale in comparison to Alonso's list of transgressions, but attesting him character is a bit rich, especially when you say a man with one more title than Lewis and Multi21 as the only real blot on the vest has none.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Lets take Vettel's transgressions and, actually, there have been many, it amazes me how blinkered you are. But since you mentioned it, lets take Multi21. Vettel had no problem threatening his own team RBR with legal action when he sent them a solicitors letter in the aftermath of Multi21. That shows him to have less character than Alonso. At least in Alonso's case, he actually was at war with his own team at that time. Vettel, on the other hand, had it nice and cushy. And as soon as it gets a little rough, of course, he throws the toys out of the pram and threatens his team that had brought him so much success.
You know, I'll be the first person to state that Lewis's past is less than rosy. But the thing I admire most about him is always his ability to come out and say that he was wrong and made a mistake. Taking the telemetry data leak (you'd swear he had secretly sold TBs of data to a rival), or Melbourne 2009. He came out and took ownership of his mistakes and carried on. That is what real character is, it's admitting when you make your mistakes because, at the end of the day, we will all screw up from time to time. Character is not wetting diapers and calling a solicitor like Vettel did. As for Spa 14, whether it was confidential or not, he did what he had to do to put a cheat in his place. I've personally no issue with this. He played a cheat at his own game and then used that edge to obliterate Rosberg for the remainder of the year.
I've never witnessed Vettel admit when he did wrong. Take Turkey 2010 where he was clearly wrong and didn't admit it. Narain Karthikeyan in Malaysia 2012 where your boy had such character that he showed a fellow driver the finger after Vettel himself cut acrosss Karthikeyan and caused a collision., Kvyat this year in China, which was just a racing incident, and then tries to bully Kvyat in the aftermath. In none of these situations, or any other which I may have forgotten about, have I ever seen Vettel admit fault and he definitely hasn't shown character in any of them. All these just point to a person whom just likes to get things the easy way and always has done. That's why he left RBR, not because it was his dream to go to Ferrari, he could have gone to Ferrari any time he wanted. He just wanted life the easy way again and not have to face Danny, which exactly sums up his F1 tenure to date. Easy!
I'll give him credit for what he has achieved in Ferrari last year. It was the first time he nearly impressed me. Given that, I'm actually not sure how much of that was him being great, or simply looking great beside a very average and over-rated Kimi Raikkonen. Either way, Ricciardo still whipped his ass in a straight fight.
There's no doubting Vettel is a fantastic driver, although definitely not near the top of the current crop, but he's also a whiny little bitch!
I'm not a moderator, but right now I'm feeling inclined to remind you people that this thread is supposed to be about the Verstappen-Kyvat swap. As much as the Vettel v. Hamilton argument is interesting, I would personally appreciate it if we could stop it from resurfacing in pretty much every long thread in this forum.
Stole? No. Ricciardo made better use of his strategy and was faster when it counted.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
PB had 3 car related retirements during 2014. So did Ricciardo, if we count him being DSQ at Australia.Quote:
b) the car which kept breaking down while RIC's didn't. Even Marko admitted that and that says a lot
And every time they changed it, it didn't make any change difference in his performance - Ricciardo was much faster all the time.Quote:
c) the fact that they had to change the chassis three times throughout the year.
Besides that, changing your chassis is quite normal and not indicative of a issue.
Facts are still your worst enemy.Quote:
d) he went into the season with a massive mileage deficit as he also had the majority of mechanicals during the abysmal winter tests and RIC got the entire Bahrain test with Vettel not running at all.
There were 3 pre-season tests in 2014.
One at Jerez and two at Bahrain.
At Jerez Ricciardo did 10 laps, PB did 11 laps.
At Bahrain, altogether, Ricciardo did 148 laps. PB did massively less, massively. He did exactly 147 laps. So a grand total difference of exactly 0 laps over 3 tests. Of course, it was not an ideal test period for them, but it should have been more than enough. Actually, Ricciardo was the one who suffered more, because he was new to the team.
Pacewise, Ricciardo was much faster pretty much all the time. The only races in 2014 where Ricciardo was not better were Malaysia and Brazil. It was his racepace that was clearly superior to that of his teammates and that stayed constant in whole of 2014.Quote:
There is no doubt that Danny got used to the different characteristics of the car quicker than Seb, but the picture is massively skewed by the fact that Vettel's year was like Lewis' start to 2016. He had all the bad luck in 2014. If you look at the second half of the 2014 season, you'll see that there wasn't much in between them.
The only reason PB looked better in 2015 than in 2014 was because he had a weak teammate. If you look at his actual performances, he made plenty of errors and plenty of bad weekends. When your teammate is Alcohol Kimi, who was massacred in 2014 by Alonso, then beating him is not exactly difficult. If his teammate in 2015 had been Lewis, Ricciardo, Alonso - you would have seen exactly the same as in 2014. A total beatdown on PB.Quote:
RIC is good, but he is not championship material, because he lacks the consistency. He is brilliant in one race and rather anonymous in the next. He was looking good in 2014, but a year later, against Kvyat he looked distinctly beatable while Vettel was back to his old self.
Also, let's not forget that according to rumors, Ricciardo was besting the best times vettel did in the Red Bull simulator already in 2013...
As for Ricciardo not being championship material? In the Red Bull from 2009 to 2013, he would have taken 5 titles.
You need to check your stats.Quote:
People seem to forget that the great Ayrton Senna once barely beat Berger by a single point. There were only five races in 1992 in which both Maccas finished and Berger finished higher than Senna in three of them
When both of them actually finished the races, it was in favour of Senna 3-1.
Besides that, the difference is that in 1992 Berger rarely had the measure of Senna in speed, neither in qualifying nor in races. In 2014, Ricciardo had the measure of his teammate in speed pretty much all the time.
No, he inherited a weak teammate, just like in 2013. The only time he had a teammate who was competent, he was destroyed.Quote:
Long story short: Being handed your ass and having a bad season are not the same thing. Kimi Räikkönen was handed his ass, first by Alonso then by Vettel, but looking at 2015 you can easily see that Seb hadn't forgotten how to drive. He had just inherited Webbers car
In 2011, LH was actually not lacking in pace, but was lacking in brains. Maissvely different from Red Bull situationin 2014.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
The only difference is that in 2013 and 2015 PB had a teammate who was completely out of his depth. The first time he met a quality teammate, he ran away from the challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Yet, nothing quite bests threatning to sue your own team like your hero did.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Garry, can I rent your sig space? Was thinking if something like..
"Super Seb, 4 time WDC, simply the best driver in F1 history... or maybe it's Fernando"
A case of Kool-ade be enough?
On a serious note and back OT.. I think we have something quite special in Max and he can only get better. His ability to soak up the huge pressure he was under, turn it round and actually thrive on it in Spain suggests to me that he has enormous potential. What do you see?