Hyundai talking about the placement of anti-cutting devices after recce. Is this meant to be mitigation ?
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyund...ther-question/
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Hyundai talking about the placement of anti-cutting devices after recce. Is this meant to be mitigation ?
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyund...ther-question/
Information-doping in rally :)
I assume it's not that big issue nowadays for WRC events, as there is huge amount of information available from previous years onboards, everyone do their own recce onboards, also there is often Google Streetview available. Those don't cover last-minute changes like anti-cutting devices, like it was the case with Neuville, but it gives way more information than "just 2 passes".
But from that perspective - should it be allowed for the crews not yet started to stage follow all-live feed? It gives competitive advantage from the latest situation on the road.
It does, but usually they got plenty of other things to do in the last few minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by meh
Weird they got caught. It doesn't seem that hard to have someone check a few things without it being traceable back to a team or driver.
I guess all the cars driving those stages are known - as I understood it's private/closed area for public traffic and it's easy to track all cars driving there. I think Jamie can give us more information about the situation there or how (not) hard is to someone pass those stages and being not noticed.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Where do you draw the line of what is and what isn't anymore allowed? Each team has it's own meteo crews who are up in the stages, sending back not only information about weather, but I suppose also photos of potential hazards. In Sardegna I saw them measure the depth of watersplash. Though in this case, meteo crews are registered for each them, unlike "friend of Neuville" I suppose.
Personally - I don't think it's effective disallowing collecting information by rules, as it's really hard to achieve it. If there are rules, you know them and you need to follow them. In Neuville's case - he know he was going to do something against the rules and from that perspective there is nothing to complain for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoN_cz
I'm not a rally driver and probably can not give an good valuation here - but how much more information you actually can gain? How much information you can put to your pace-notes. And from that perspective - what it gives extra after your 2 recce passes which you have recorded anyway.
The goal is - everyone have equal amount of information and that's why I ask, how does it makes sense to late-starters to follow all-live feed and collecting the latest information available, it's especially case for powerstages.
Anyway, however much information you have - you need to put it to your driving.
This would be what I thought too. Judging by other comments online too it seems it would be more surprising if this was an isolated incident. It will be interesting to see what more comes from the story. Be great if someone like Dirtfish make a push to investigate if its more widespread but doubt they'll be willing to rock many boats unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
This story doesn't seem about to go:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-h...e-of-the-mark/
lol, Colin Clark's naivety is almost bigger than Hyundai's, he actually believes Hyundai wasn't the one hiring the reconnaissance dude? :D
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin...river-ratings/
"I’m absolutely shocked at the stupidity of Thierry Neuville’s actions here in Kenya.
Illegal recceing is, and always has been, one of the most serious offences in rallying. So much so that we’ve seen drivers banned for fairly lengthly periods in the past for cheating in this way.
It’s beyond belief that a team of Hyundai’s experience should allow this to happen.
What was already a very difficult weekend for the team has, overnight, become catastrophic.
There are still many unanswered questions around this incident that may or may not mitigate Neuville’s actions.
I for one though just feel enormous disappointment that one of our biggest stars should be caught doing something he so obviously shouldn’t have been doing."
There used to be times when delecour was praised because he knew people living in the mountains around monte carlo who would tell him if it was snowing or not.
It is of course common practice, everywhere by everyone. But that doesn't make it legal. If you get caught, you should get punished.
"The people connected to Neuville were stopped by event officials on a private estate in Kenya"
If they were cought by the officials, why wait till after the rally do DSQ them?
Clark is quite silly sometimes. On the podcast he showed that he can listen and reign it in a bit, but in writing he lacks someone to bounce of and come to his .Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
If it was the Hyundai team doing the hiring of the illegal recce people, why would this just be for the benefit of Neuville & Wydaeghe ? Wouldnt the info also be passed to Lappi and Sordo ?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Autosport:
Neuville’s co-driver Martijn Wydaeghe claimed in the stewards report that a person was sent to the stage to understand the “ambiguity to what constitutes corner-cutting and the anti-cutting measures that the organiser was perceived to have introduced following reconnaissance.”
Neuville took full responsibility and apologised for his lapse in judgement
It's almost like he thinks it was Thierry himself with a bad-fitting wig and fake moustache who was caught driving the stages...Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Colin Clark is a clown.
Could be that Hyundai used this guy only for their main driver, could be that Hyundai used other guys for Lappi and Sordo who haven't been caught, could be that the info gathered by the caught guy was passed to Lappi and Sordo as well but they weren't thrown under the bus (most probable).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Otherwise, how do you explain this? Neuville brings someone from Belgium to do illegal recce in Kenya? Neuville hires some shady people on the streets with his personal money, while hiding it from the team? Come on, that's sci-fi.
Now the rally is over, is there still a lot of speculation the WRC won't be coming back to Kenya in 2024?Quote:
Originally Posted by J4MIE
Why would Hyundai throw their top driver under the bus and not one of their others if that was possible ?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Its clear the recce was done for the benefit of Neuville either instigated by himself or the team, thars why only he is blamed. And I dont see Neuville apologising if it was organised by the team.
Because throwing Lappi or Sordo under the bus would be terribly unfair towards them and they might not stand for it. The guy who was caught said he was linked to Neuville, who's Hyundai's first driver and the one Hyundai cares the most to give additional info.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
If the guy would have said "I was hired by the Hyundai team" = 3 DQs, maybe a bigger penalty for Hyundai.
I absolutely see Neuville taking the blame for the team to avoid 3 DQs and maybe more. It's a shame he's so loyal to that team. And by the point he was being questioned, he knew he was going to be DQd regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
And you're welcome to write down a plausible scenario in which Neuville instigated the illegal recce by himself, one that doesn't belong to fairy tales.
Nothing new, thought everyone was awere of this especially after Jari and Petter was stopped from doing recce. And on new events it's not like they see the stages for the first time on recce...
@focus206 It's far from impossible that Neuville got someone to do the illegal recce and his later statement as good as confirms it for me.
“When asked, the Driver of Car No. 11 promptly admitted to the Stewards that he was aware of the identified person and that he had requested this person’s support in identifying specific concerns (areas where rocks had moved) in some Special Stages that the Crew will be required to compete on.
“The Driver presented an honest synopsis of the situation and apologised to the Stewards for his lapse in judgement. The Driver took the onus of responsibility for this infringement."
You keep copying and pasting what we all read from the Stewards. I thought a rally fan was able to read more between the lines of the sport... Let's break down these sentences again:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
"When asked, the Driver of Car No. 11 promptly admitted to the Stewards that he was aware of the identified person" = he was aware, just like Hyundai was, very probably Lappi and Sordo were. There was no way of denying it.
"and that he had requested this person’s support in identifying specific concerns (areas where rocks had moved) in some Special Stages that the Crew will be required to compete on." = as I said multiple times already, if Neuville would have said the person was hired by Hyundai, the consequence would have been DQ for Neuville, Sordo, Lappi and a much worse negative press for Hyundai, maybe even a bigger penalty for the team.
"The Driver presented an honest synopsis of the situation and apologised to the Stewards for his lapse in judgement. The Driver took the onus of responsibility for this infringement." = same as above. What was he supposed to say? It's Hyundai's fault? He would have got DQd anyway and the team he apparently wants to spend his whole career in, unfortunately, wouldn't have liked that. It's Lappi or Sordo's fault? Come on, that's low...
I'm still waiting for you or Colin Clark to write down how is it possible that a Belgian driver in Kenya hires with his own money a guy to do illegal recce unbeknownst to the team. Saying "It's far from impossible" it's not a scenario. And I find it quite incredible you don't think that it's extremely more probable it's Hyundai that hires illegal recce (not the first time, probably not the last time) rather than undercover single drivers.
@focus206 I would say you are right in your assessment - it was either going to be one Hyundai driver, or all of them. He's taken the hit to avoid a whole-team DQ.
The most surprising thing is that Thierry / Martijn were the ones who ended up taking the penalty. We can only assume the person caught on the stages was wearing a 'Braver@Home' t-shirt, carrying a can of Jupiler, or spoke with a particularly strong Belgian accent.
While it is possible that the activity was actually arranged or coordinated by the team, I wouldn't say it's too far-fetched for individual crews themselves to arrange their own illegal gravel crew. At least, in the sense that some people in the camp might actually be aware it's going on, but in a way that can't be traced back to the team itself. That way, if they get caught, it will not result in the whole team being disqualified. Plausible deniability and all that. They're probably even briefed as such - to only admit to working for an individual crew.
To me, the recce guy was either chosen to be Neuville's guy (meaning that Sordo and Lappi's guys weren't caught) or since Neuville is Hyundai's priority driver, for sure his concerns with those particular rocks had the priority over Sordo and Lappi's concerns. For the recce guy to say he was Lappi or Sordo's guy would have been such a low blow to them... And as you said, they're probably instructed to admit to be working for one driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by ouvreur
I could believe crews arranging their own illegal recce if it was Neuville in Ypres, Tanak in Estonia/Finland, Delecour in Monte etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ouvreur
But in Safari? I think the chance the recce wasn't coordinated by the team is microscopic.
I think the most important think in this story is who really was that person who was caught. For example, if it was brother of Thierry, everything should be more clear...
I hear the surname might have been De Mevius. If you believe rumours.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
Sounds Belgian to me.
Maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile...ain-de-mevius/
'Reading between the lines' is just your opinion @focus206. And I bet you had a low opinion of Colin Clark already so no surprise you disagree with him.
I prefer to look at the majority of rally website reports, most of whom carry the interpretation that it was a person who was part of Neuville's background group. If this is true then it's an easy thing for him to have done.
Rally websites don't carry any interpretation, they just report what was written by the stewards. The stewards wrote what Neuville answered when questioned, nothing more, nothing less. And here we go back to what we've talked about multiple times about what Neuville said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Of course I have a low opinion of Colin Clark. I'd say most rally fans that are into the sport enough to know who Colin Clark is, don't have a high opinion of him.
You guys forget that Neuville is allegedly the grand poobah over at Hyundai and he decides from what setup everyone has on the car to what the janitor has for lunch. According to that debating if the team or the driver did it is irrelevant. :P (this is a joke, in case it's not obvious)
He's also the prime minister of South Korea (allegedly).Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
Attachment 2460
Lappi cooling his heels literally after an eventful Safari