Its strange we still havent had any more details of the accident from the team or the cause of death. You'd think after a WRC fatality it would get a full investigation or enquiry and would've revealed everything and any lessons to be learned.
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Its strange we still havent had any more details of the accident from the team or the cause of death. You'd think after a WRC fatality it would get a full investigation or enquiry and would've revealed everything and any lessons to be learned.
I'm sure the ones that need to know - know. Others out of respect should mind their businessQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I don't like this head in the sand way, some official report should be published wether it was a freak accident or they found some weakness in the Rally1s that needs to be improved. It doesn't have to go into details but a closed loop is usually not healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ictus
This was the last we were told in April 2023:
"Hyundai Motorsport and the FIA are working together to review all aspects of the incident."
But no result of this review have been published.
If it was found to be a freak accident and nothing can be done to avoid a similar one then they should just confirm this.
Every sensible person puts 1+1 together, no extra detailed explanation needed.
You didn't copy the whole section..
In April Abiteboul said:
Let the champ be!Quote:
“Road conditions were slippery and the car slid off the road at a relatively low speed and made contact with a wooden fence. A post from this fence intruded into the cabin through the driver’s side window.
As far as can be ascertained, there was no issue with any element of the car, the tires or the safety equipment.''
there clearly are some serious issues with the tubular chassis concerning the puncturing of objects into the cockpit.
they put foam everywhere, but there is nothing made of solid metal anymore to stop things getting in.
but what happened to breen was a freak accident. you can never make a rally car completely impervious.
The issue is that penetration of a rally/race car by an object with small cross section is virtually impossible to prevent because the kinetic energy of the car is way too much for creating any sort of working protection. Moreover in most cases the objects penetrates the cockpit through the windshield or side windows. Even if you put a bullet proof glass (which is super heavy) it will not be enough to prevent penetration by something like a steel pipe at higher speeds. It's not an issue of a tube frame.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Just to illustrate what I am talking about. The WRC car with the crew weights around 1400 kg. If it is going 100 km/h it has a kinetic energy equivalent to a shot from this.
https://www.vhu.cz/wp-content/upload...-vzor-38-3.jpg
If you have an object with a small cross-section it will penetrate whatever you can build into a car. I remember I saw a railguard penetrating an engine block of a BMW X5 in a Kubica-style accident.
Breen's off was officially classsed as low speed. And the impact was side-on as the post went into the side window. None of this impact was anything like a shot from a howitzer.
Freak accident or not, I'd like to see it confirmed how the FIA saw it, and them clarify nothing can be done to prevent such a thing happening again.
Exactly. A shot from a pistol is 500J, that is 2000x less and an equivalent of a car moving by a speed of 2 km/h but you still need 20 mm thick glass to stop it. That is about 25 kg for a side window (glass alone, not a frame to hold it during a crash). For sure the bullet has a smaller cross section than a pole so the penetration ability will be lesser but for an idea about what energies we are talking about it is a good comparison I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
i will use fourmaux again as an example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
https://cdn.racingnews365.com/_1125x...g?v=1646236549
there is just nothing to stop objects coming in from the side. even things that would create just a big dent in a normal metal door could become lethal in these plastic cars.
They added a second hoop, but they should have also added a 1 or 2mm thick metal plate between the hoops and between the X in the doors instead of just foam.
it would add just a few kg's at max, but that would be the same for all so it doesn't matter.
Windows are still unprotected.
A thin sheet of steel isn't enough. Anybody else here remember the Marcus Gronholm "Timo's ass …" quote when something came through the floor of the car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAGbrM-MMRk
I think that here the door simply fell off. A layer of sheet metal on the door laying somewhere in the bushes would change nothing on the safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
The proper request in that case is to request hinge and lock design which must keep the door shut during an accident (needs to be exactly defined by the rules) and in the same time can not get stuck. It's nothing new, every stock car needs to fulfill such requirement. I guess that something was done because I don't remember the cars loosing door anymore.
What I'm getting at is that a rally car collision at relatively low speed, side-on with a wooden fence, should not lead to the death of the driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
But they all seem to just have accepted that it's ok...
There is no silver bullet here because the laws of physics are universal. Unless you want to watch a race of 3 tons heavy armoured cars an accident like that of Craig will always lead to a penetration of the cabin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
As Mirek said over and over again, laws of physics are universal... here the wooden slat went through the metal door like nothing and pierced into the seat
https://youtu.be/Pg5IhwnQmVo?si=QbXv2JuZ98LtPmxz&t=260
https://youtu.be/vsmrBJGfDbc?si=vEBdwSeQjyTZHzZp&t=37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boyd
I don't mean a metal sheet in the door, I mean a 2mm metal plate welded to the rollcage. You can't stop everything because the driver still needs to see outside, but a lot of openings that he doesn't need could be closed way better than they are now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
https://i.ibb.co/JBsMZDp/rolkooi.jpg
Even if the comparison is very imperfect because of the penetrator cross section I'll go back to the pistol bullet. It has an energy equivalent to a WRC car moving at only 2 km/h but it can penetrate 4 mm of steel. A car moving at 20 km/h has 86x more energy. What You propose would help just a little and it would bring about 20 kg weight in places which are inconvenient for the vehicle performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
European Rally Championship remembers Craig Breen:
https://www.fiaerc.com/a/news/w27315...ower-Stage-win
Not saying it's not a fair point however surface area and materials matter too. A bullet is a concentrated mass made out of a relatively strong material. A piece of wood even if it's sturdy is not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
If they were to enhance the protection I suppose they would go from something carbon based instead of heavy metals. Circuit cars have such "survival cells" which are subjected to several tests including intrusion tests. F1 helmets are bulletproof exactly to protect against intrusion. Obviously a rally car is different but I'm sure they could do better.
Maybe it's too expensive for WRC but better is always possible.
It came through the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
There isn't a simple solution in the vehicle design so maybe they need to look at the roadside and either change the roads used or build protection on roadside hazards.
This is what they do on the Isle of Man for the TT races:
https://c7.alamy.com/comp/TRNXG9/a-r...hay-TRNXG9.jpg
Why metal?Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
They make bullet proof vests from carbon and kevlar fibres, not steel sheet.
I wonder if the follow-up to this fatal accident wouldve been different if it had happened during a live WRC rally and not in a test ? Would there have to be a more official investigation as it was in an event ?
Also, if we accept that the car (side window) cant be made any safer from penetration, how about the drivers own personal safety equipment ? F1 and other sports are continually improving them, like in cricket where batsman's helmets now have the back of the neck protected following a fatality when one was struck by a ball at 90mph+...
https://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/66805723
There would certainly have been a full FIA investigation. I'm not sure that happened in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
If it had been at an event there may well have been better protection of roadside furniture than for a manufacturer's test. In any case, looking at that incident, and the other video posted on this thread where a car went through a wooden fence, it would appear that wooden fencing is a lot more hazardous that you might expect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Can't believe that tomorrow (13th April) is now 1 year without this great man..
On this date last year we lost a huge chunk of our sport & community’s heart, I wish it never would’ve happened in the first place.
I miss him in every rally he’s not competing, and it feels like a part of the WRC is dead since he’s been gone.
R.I.P Craig
#For_Breen
It's something missing on events for sure
https://youtu.be/CSvI-Xl7b0M
One year on and still no official report on the accident as Hyundai & FIA announced was to take place.
https://m.sundayworld.com/news/irish...060339143.html
The Anatomy Of A Tragedy - The Safety Flaw Revealed By Craig Breen's Crash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7gxtS_0Zrg
Thanks. Good to see I'm not the only one still questioning the exact reason for the fatality and the lack of an official FIA report.Quote:
Originally Posted by Managarium
An investigation and report may have been produced but not necessarily made public. Doesn't have to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
But they announced there was to be one, so why do that if they're not going to release it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
And even if they dont give details and just say they're satisfied it was a freak incident it would be better than silence.
No offence, but because people like you would get their pitchforks ready if they didn't announce a investigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Why are people taking offence. Isnt it perfectly normal and usual to have an investigation into a fatal motorsport accident ?
All I want to know is why Craig Breen died and if his death icould or should have been avoided.
(Personally I think I deserve that, being I was one of his earliest supporters from 2010 when no-one else here was).
Yes, it's both the law and an FIA requirement. That no public prosecutions arose is the only answer you need. IMO you can read enough in the link you posted and see it was a terrible freak accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Perhaps don't chase it on the first anniversary if you don't want to irritate folk.
I remember Craig better than most and miss him in the sport. If now isnt also a time to raise questions then I'm sorry.
I just wonder why we've heard no more after a year...
https://sports.auto-moto.com/wrc/wrc...aig-breen-2532
I'm certainly not offended by your desire, it's totally understandable. Certain things are not meant to be public knowledge or at least there isn't a need for it to be public. I guess you and the other people here got a rough idea what happened and a public report confirming that wouldn't change anything or benefit in any way. The people who need to know surely got access to the required information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Would have been 35th birthday today :(
Still unbelievable..
Fly high Mr Breen!
Yes.
Fly high Mr Breen!