Why not to blame the medieval sites here in Prague as well? There are many more people flying because of them than to the all F1 races combined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
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Why not to blame the medieval sites here in Prague as well? There are many more people flying because of them than to the all F1 races combined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
Do you miss my point Mirek?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I am only pointing out that F1 fans are probably more harmful to the environment than WRC fans as that is what the topic was about. I am not an eco warrior!
That was not against you, sorry. I meant it as a general lamentation about a meaning of such discussion in the overall picture. Basically anything which attracts people creates some carbon footprint but while we are talking about marginal causes we completely avoid to talk about the major causes - overpopulation and overtransporting of goods in the hunt for profit. Nobody wants to hear that nothing will get better as long as the population will continue to grow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm75
With free practice and qualifying in F1 they often rack up 100 laps before race start, so they will at least cover 2 times the race distance (race included).Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I agree with liasion's being quite long, at least the rally cars have road mode. Liasion's should still be optimized, wasn't it one rally where if they changed the order of the stages a new, better, transport route could be used?
I also read that F1 cars are pretty efficient, converting 50% of fuel to power compared to 30% in a petrol road car.
Wonder what a WRC car does ? I know that the MPG in stage mode is very low.
That is given mainly by the nature of the use. You don't drive the F1 car on 10% of power for 90% of time. If you do that it will be very inefficient because it is tuned to be fuel effective close to the peak power (unlike stock engines). You can't really compare that.
Yves Matton spoke on the WRC future at ASI.
from around 6:15.0 in:
https://youtu.be/kUB4mmHeLwE
Interesting watch. In particular, about the cost of hybrid WRC cars and privateers. I hope he is able to deliver a car that is under €1 million.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
He basically says there will not be any new manufacturer in 2022, because whichever they are discussing with don't have facilities or organization yet. He mentions that Hyundai could do it in two years and it's not impossible. But I have a feeling that they are just dreaming of having more of it without any real interest show even if hybrid really happens.
The earlier interview with MSport's bosses was also interesting - as well as the car cost worries, it was also their concern that whatever direction is chosen the new cars could already be 'out of fashion' by the time they are introduced.
Its certain that the correct direction of engine/fuel will be crucial to the future of WRC.
Hybrids in top level motorsport are hardly new; WEC & F1 have had them for approx 7-8 years - the WRC still can't decide on them. There comes a point when the costs/ benefits is evaluated and they have to say yes or no. Just how many manufacturers can afford a hybrid WRC car?
In my view, not enough for a sustainable series.
Good inteview with Mr Matton on ASI.
FIA are working strategically, and things take time. But they are in my opinion moving in the right direction
- Cost of WRC is to high, so there are too few cars competing. FIA would like to see the old mix of Works teams, Privat teams and some gentlemen drivers. Good to see! They see that cost have spiralled, and next gen hybrid cars will not be more but rather less expensive than today.
- They have the new rally pyramid in place, from Rally 1 to rally 5.
- He have great expectations for the new Rally 3, and manufacturers are working on details with FIA and will make cars for 2021
- Matton have said before that Rally 2 Kit needs more work to get cost btw rally 2 and rally 2 Kit cars larger.
- FIA are worried about recruitment into the sport from new young drivers, and are putting in place more programs to make it easier and sponsors in place.
- New WRC 2 and WRC 3 classes will clarify better for the fans ans sponsors manu supported teams and privat teams using R5/Rally 2 cars.
To me it seems FIA have seen where work needs to be done, and most important issues are making progress.
I don't beleive for a second that the new Hybrid cars can be cheaper than the current generation cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
I believe Malcolm Wilson more than I do Yves Matton.
With these liveries... what future does the WRC really have? M-Sport is ok... TGR... pass. Hyundai? It'll be the same!
it really is indeed the biggest problem we have.
So no Skoda then..Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
I don't know. All I've been reading is just from Subaru and that just only an rumours. Skoda even end their works team program and only support some drivers with R5 machines.
From early interviews Matton was pretty sure that some manufacturers will be there then,. Now he claims that with new regs 50% more manufacturers could enter chapionship. That's not interest from them, it's just wishes.
I think at the start of 2019 or it was 2018 there were post from FIA that the new manufacturer will be at the start of Monte. But we never saw anything new. VW start only few outings and never really competed in any championship since their withdrawal in 2016.
MEM (Mellors Motorsport) are loud every year how they will enter in WRC2 but they develop that Iriz for some long now that the car will actually be too old for new ones, which are believed will come soon (upgraded i20, possible Yaris, rumoured 208,...)
I don't know. I wish there was more of them even in main category, but the problem is there is not enough 1st class drivers. And if Ogier really retires the number will be reduced to two (I don't count Latvala and Meeke anymore because their careers are practicaly over). How could manufacturer really show that they are competitive for wins or titles when there are no one who could bring them that. Maybe new WRC talent ladder will help bring real talents to the top, we will see.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
I don't know. I wish there was more of them even in main category, but the problem is there is not enough 1st class drivers. And if Ogier really retires the number will be reduced to two (I don't count Latvala and Meeke anymore because their careers are practicaly over). How could manufacturer really show that they are competitive for wins or titles when there are no one who could bring them that. Maybe new WRC talent ladder will help bring real talents to the top, we will see.[/QUOTE]
My hopes are on Kalle and Oliver.. Maybe only in 2 or 3 years, but I think we wil see real race winning speed from them soon. That's when they step into the wrc class I mean.
Fia should create a reg whit current wrc cars whit standard hybrid kit. If hybrid would AL be the same, and delivered by one external producer, that would help keeping costs down.
...that’s what they’re planning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvel
There is already a tender out for this supply. It’s on their websiteQuote:
Originally Posted by Duvel
It's actually going to be a big job even for the current Manus/Teams.
They will have to design, build and test these brand new hybrid cars, while still running and developing the current WRC cars to try to win in 2020 & 2021.
I worry especially about M-Sport in this unless Ford give them a lot of help.
That's no different to any rule change in the past. Take it from the other side, it gives everyone a new zero starting point which is always a good thing.
What else is changing in the cars apart from the new system? Surely it will be an easier development and testing process than the jump from 2016-2017 cars?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Eveyrthing if it still applies that the new cars will be spaceframe-based prorotypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
'Rule-change' is putting it mildly when switching to hybrid...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Exactly.... its not just the changing the propulsion system of the current cars. The costs are another unknown too, both of the cars themselves and their development.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
And all while running the current ICE cars.
It's no drama, Freddie. It's a rule change like many others. Intergrating a hybrid system into a spaceframe prototype is for sure easier than into a stock bodyshell. The spaceframe doesn't make things harder but easier.
Ah, ok.. I thought they were using most of the current cars with a new system, didn't know the space framed idea was signed off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Why do you think that integrating the hybrid system into the current cars would be easier? IMHO not at all.
I thought it would be cheaper than designing a new car, not necessarily easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
For what it’s worth, I still think they have a hell of a lot of soul searching to do before they take the plunge and set the regs, both in terms of what makes the championship attractive from a fan and manufacturer point of view. They are in a bit of a grey area in terms of being late to the hybrid party and with the manufacturers moving road vehicle technology at such a pace, I’m not so certain that hybrid (and especially given the cost of a car being rumoured at 1 million) will entice the current manufactures to sign up, never mind new ones joining the party.
From a fans point of view, I’m also a little concerned that the championship is becoming very repetitive in terms of what each rally offers... same format, not really much variety, apart from surface differences. I guess that’s one reason why the Monte stands out as a little bit different to the rest.
Well, we're told the WRC is an attractive proposition for manufacturers - the proof of that will be in which ones sign up for whatever regs are decided, whenever that is.
When the 2017 change happened it took the teams a good while to get their new cars sorted and reliable. And they were similar to the previous spec (but more aero, power & active diffs). Some like Citroen didnt ever get their car fully-sorted in 3 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Imagine adding the hybrid systems on top of that and a brand new chassis to be sorted.
But it'll be no drama... really ?
Eddie, starting from zero is a good thing for the sport not a bad one! It means that everyone stands on the same starting point and can't take much from the previous advantage it gained through the years. The fact everyone needs to bring new ideas and new strategies is what makes it exciting and much less predictable.
As we've seen in the past the first few years after a change in the rules are the best. Only when one or two teams start to gain large advantage over the others it starts to fade until the point where a new change of rules is introduced to make it interesting again.
This will gain traction. I honestly think they need to regroup and come up with a better plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
This isnt about the point I was making.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
It was about the huge work the Manu's/Teams will have to do, and the higher costs, all while still running and developing the current cars.
You seem to think it will all be plain sailing. I dont.
Every change of rules, which brings new cars, means a huge work. But this huge work gives a huge opportunity. Much bigger than at the start of a season in a continuous era where everything is limited by the jokers. As you sure agree the most important in the sport is to succeed and a change of rules gives that chance to those who were not successful before.
That's why usually new manufacturers join at the first two seasons of an era and not later when the advantage of those already in the circus is too big. On the other hand if FIA changes the rules without attracting any new manufacturers than it's for sure sad but in the current automotive world it may be the reality.
That hybrids will be expensive is another thing and a thing which was clear from the very beginning.
Gerard Quinn @WRCgerardquinn quotes on the costs of hybrids:
This is not sustainable. €6M - €12M development costs.
The technology being proposed is not even relevant to the products manufacturers will sell so it may not even be an attractive proposition to support commercially for most OEM's.
Think beyond spaceframe development. Transmission, engine, electric motor, tyre testing programmes alone for a start to develop performance and reliability. Current car estimated initial dev cost min €6M+ so the math is pretty simple when you base it on that.
Rally has always been accessible. Teams/manufacturers come and go depending on financial commitments. An affordable proposition is what gives the sport a longer-term lifeline. WRC is coming close to being cost prohibitive for most to consider in the future.