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well, dont take it with 100%, its just my guess and Evans wasnt also sure on that podcast, but Lappi didnt test with the new aero in Estonia and Finland tests were also done with the old aero, as you can see it from the vids.
Maybe theres some other updates besides aero.
Great to hear honesty like this and not just pr bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
I suppose if Lappi found a drive elsewhere maybe Citroen would break the contract and let him go. No point continuing if it’s not working for either of them.
I would quite like to see Lappi in M-Sport, I believe in him more than Suninen.
I dont think its just Lappi stuggling, Ogier is struggling too, but has managed to cling onto the championship, through skill, luck, and other misforutune. He too know he cant stay around there much longer, unless there is big improvements soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
I just remember how Lappi praised the C3 saying it is better than the Yaris. Seemed to be strange at that time and now I guess he regrets it.
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Where did he say this? I remember him commenting on the engine differences, nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
I read it in our local media maybe was lost in translation but that was the comment after the first tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
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i ve read it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
If i remember correct,he said that he cant understand all this talk about how bad the c3 was.And that was after he had tested the car.
Could be a translation issue as IIRC Lappi has been quite cautious with statements regarding the C3 from day one. The only pure comparison I remember was about the engine characteristics, probably the same AnttiL already mentioned.
This was on test before Monte, he said basically 2 things:Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
- that the car wasn't so tricky as people say
- that notably the engine and gearbox were better (this part was likely related to the stalling issues under breaking in Yaris)
Monte test was dry+wet + snow tarmac though, not gravel. But I think he did some gravel test in Portugal at end of 2018 too.
If we're referring to same sources, here's what Lappi actually said:Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi...n-kierroskone/
Interview with a Finnish rally site, published on the week Lappi had his second Monte PET session. Interview in Finnish, text in Finnish.
The car has potential but especially on gravel we need to work more to get that potential out. There's unused potential on aerodynamics area. We're lacking downforce on gravel. The engine philosophy is different between Citroen and Toyota. With Toyota you have more torque where as Citroen has more power on higher revs. I don't know which one is better or faster, but that's one major difference. The gearbox and transmission seem to be working better on C3 than they did on Yaris. That's a clear step forward.
https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lapil...oyotaa-edella/
Another one, published after the first Monte PET session in December 2018. This Finnish article refers to an interview Lappi had done with rallye-magazine.de, so the quotes we see have probably been through a translation process of English => German => Finnish.
The car didn't feel difficult to drive. On some areas the Citroen engine has more power than Toyota, which is slightly better to drive (hard to figure out, what EP actually meant - sounds like a clumsy translation to me). On the transmission side Citroen is clearly ahead. The car has potential especially on gravel, and we want and plan to use it. It's harder to see (the road) from the cockpit of C3 as the windscreen is narrower and the front of the car is really high.
i remember in one interview he said that it just needs some tweaks and it will be the best car or smth like that. im too lazy to search for it.
Anyway, we with my friends were very surprised by his comments at that time. Like, you havent even done one rally with the car and you already say its better there and there and with some tweaks it will be the best car.
Testing is one thing, rally another. Shame its gone so wrong for him, really miss the happy Lappi, tired of the unhappy one.
Also strange Lappi thinking his 'move to Citroen was a mistake'.
I thought he was unhappy at Toyota and moved more because of that, not because he thought the C3 was a better car.
As for contracts, they dont tie a driver to a Team, rather the other way around....
I doubt Citroen wouldnt stand in Lappi's way of he chose to move.
The way the rumors went here it was more like Tommi and him had some disagreements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
The word around the virtual Finnish service park is that it was indeed more because of some chemistry issues between different individuals than the car itself. And I have no inside information whatsoever, so it can all be #fakenews as well, but that's how I understood it.
Lappi had issues with "someone" on the team. Not any of the drivers, but someone overseeing things...
Too bad no-one could tell who it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
Attachment 1805
Note: picture was randomly chosen and has nothing to do with the subject.
I think I heard Kaj L.
I just hope that no silly stuff like personal relationships would ruin such a promising career. Let's see, moving to Citroen has not gone well sofar.
according to this clip Ogier drives in two different teams this year ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KeAH4hYVJE
Seems that way. In the pre-Monte tests, we saw a really different aero kit, then it disappeared. Perhaps it wasn't effective and they start again?Quote:
Originally Posted by wrc2017
Worryingly, I can't see them sticking around after 2020 if the team doesn't turn things around.
Also wasnt it the case that Lappi was signed to Citroen before they had signed Ogier ? So Lappi may also have thought he could be the Team's no.1.
But whatever, it too late for him to be crying now. The C3 had well-known problems before he.joined.
Problem with the c3 is it's fundamentally flawed. After 3 years I don't think that's unfair to say.
You work hard to improve one area of weakness and it effects something else - they worked so hard on gravel for years that now this season they were totally lost on tarmac in corsica. It's a sorry state of affairs but goes back to Matton's poor management and too many risks made in the design and development of the C3. Since then Citroen have been playing catch up ever since...
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And yet they have most successful rank in titles in world stage. They are in game so long that there's no excuses to make a superb car from beginning. How could M-Sport do it without any serious budget?
They were the best of a 'OK' bunch. Toyota, Volkswagen are a different level of budget and engineering.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
I don' think that Xsara, C4 and DS3 was worst cars out there. I don't say C3 is bad, but in two years they could find a solution with their knowledge and experience. They are in this sport for many years.
And Toyota with big budget (also Hyundai) have big problems. Maybe that's a good thing so events are a more unpredictable and not dominant like in VW years. Well they have another story. If Ford, Hyundai and Citroen would be even back then I don't think that they would have so much wins and titles. Citroen didn't give a shit anymore with their programme, drivers and a car was out of date. Ford didn't have a budget since Ford pull out and car was old. Hyundai just start. So what real competition did VW have?
Now Citroen seems that they also don't care much about their development, even we don't know if they will be next year in championship. M-Sport is trying to catch up and are doing a pretty good. Well Hyundai and Toyota have their own battles. Hyundai with drivers and Toyota with reliability (and Latvala).
In terms of reliability C3 is clearly the best of the 4 cars atm. It was also the only one that didn't have cooling issues in Mexico from the start (took Toyota 2 years to fix).
In terms of performance the issue imo is that it lost basically a year or more just fixing issues while others have kept improving.
To VW's credit, they did a hard job very, very well and made it look easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Their planning and execution were near perfect.
They had good facilities and background knowledge of motorsport from years of Dakar.
They ran the team (people & equipment) for one year as an S2000 team before they started with the WRC car.
They tested the car for a long time, all over the world, and arrived with a car that was ready and very, very capable. (They bypassed cooling issues in Mexico because they went there and tested, tested, tested BEFORE they entered the championship)
Anyone else could have also entered the sport in the same way, but no one in recent history has. VW achieved what they did through a lot of hard work and a clever strategy that gave them a maximum head start. They then capitalized on that with good organisation, clever engineering and a good budget.
it's all about the money and investments. with the right management, of course. it just pays off. that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
And still doesn't have them fixed while the others are still improvingQuote:
Originally Posted by mknight
They seem to have bounced from losing faith in one department to another in looking for the failings of the car & team.
They lost trust in Meeke, then the engineers/designers and followed that up with the management. Only now do they have a recognised championship contender driving the car to eliminate at least that doubt, Meeke was fast but erratic, so for engineers it was easy to point the finger. In honesty they probably lost most of 2017 blaming him when the car wasn’t working.
It does look like they are now pulling the right way, but I have to say it looks like progress is slow from the outside...
Most importantly they hired ogier and loeb retired.Quote:
Originally Posted by OHL
Without ogier they would have won 2 drivers titles with latvala, but hyundai also would have won 2 with neuville.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
And all of this coupled with Mads statements about the R5 car and its shortcomings for Finland have Citroen with a pretty full plate. Especially concerning aero. They have been one of the most conservative in this area and it's not clear why. We know from statements by VW that they also did not think aero would be as important as it has proven to be. It's possible Citroen have their hands so full with just getting the car up to par that they have no time / Jokers left to fundamentally develop it.
Maybe, we'll never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Ogier was an unproven nobody at that time. A brave choice that payed off but it's not WHY they won 4 in a row.
Nitpick:Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
In 2013 Neuville was 2nd in a Fiesta.
On this weeks AR podcast Latvala confirmed the Polo was built around Ogier and it took him a long time to adapt to driving it.
He also said he has big respect for Ogier who was always very fair.
I think if Ogier cant get the C3 right, no-one can. If Citroen dont/cant then they've wasted their money employing him.
With regards to Ogier "getting C3 right".. he was leading the championship going to Sardinia and now is just a bit behind. Doesn't look like a waste of money to me. Anyway we should all be happy he isn't 40 points ahead ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Also related saga is the i20 on tarmac, now Loeb has two extra rallies (2nd this weekend) to try to make it work, we'll see how that goes.
Since there’s no news a little something https://t.co/g7FdBu2Ds5
I don't get why he puts Tanak at Hyundai over MSport.
Sure Msport probably doesn't offer much money, but he knows the car, the car has proved that it's fast (Sardinia, Corsica, Sweden, especially Corsica was pretty impressive, might have been even faster than Yaris).
On the other had Hyundai does struggle on a few rallies still (Finland we'll see in two weeks though, tarmac in mid-august) and there now is quite a history of drivers coming in and struggling with the car at times. While he might not make much of Mikkelsen struggling he surely noticed Loeb compared to his C3 time. Last but not least I don't think he would want to be in the same team with Neuville, especially since Adamo might start prioritizing one of them for drivers title very early.... and in the early part of a season Neuville will likely do better since he knows the car much more.
I assume you were not yet following rally in those years?Quote:
Originally Posted by OHL
Ogier was back then already the man who was able to challenge loeb in the same car. He won 5 wrc rallies in 2011 alone, the same as maestro loeb that year. The same amount as latvala in his whole career up to that point.
Latvala always has the same stupid excuses. After 15 years in the wrc he still claims he has to learn how to drive or he has to find the right settings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
GYes true, that was a slightly odd statement from Ostberg, they could have just not entered and said it wasn’t in the plan to go...Quote:
Originally Posted by OHL