Printable View
Was he with Jouhki? Didn't know that. Mökkönen had huge potential (all the way since Finnish Junior Championship '88) but it just never materialized on World level. 1000 Lakes 1995 was especially bitter moment :(Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Clearly this explains the comment why it's long time since teams fought for his driver. Only exception could have been Latvala back in days, but I don't remember how it went then. Hirvonen had to be "rescued" after the too early entry with Subaru. Gardermeister always seemed to end in the wrong team until 2005 when it was kind of too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
I am not saying Jouhki doesn't deliver, but compared to how arrogant he seems in media, it's certainly not as great. (as mentioned out of the 5 drivers that won the title in last 20 years, none was his). Last one I remember is from last year (Germany or Finland I think).
Becs: "I am standing here with one of the most famous WRC managers...."
Joukhi jumps in in the middle of the sentence: "Correction, THE most famous WRC manager...."
Who else can you name? Veiby? How many titles? Jouhki already decided to retire but then Suninen(?) changed his mind
Kim Vatanen worked with Ogier in his early career. And many other drivers...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
With all due respect to Kim Vatanen, his resume and legacy (when it comes to managing WRC drivers) is not even in the same ballpark as Jouhki's.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
Looks like you missed my point here. He might well be the most known manager or even the "best".Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
But saying it about himself that way makes him look arrogant.
Tanak is the probably the fastest driver atm, but does not go around saying that, therefore he is popular. While Neuville who is a bit more vocal about himselff is considered arrogant. Jouhki seems to be on another level above that again.
Exactly. And I have no reason to hype up Jouhki any further, but his CV speaks volumes. Sure, not even his clients have been able to unseat any of the Sebs, but that hardly serves as any kind of base for a conclusion that he would have lost his touch or anything like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
And how's that affecting his resume?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Btw, there's always a sense of humor in his so-called arrogance.
His resume is not exactly bulletproof. You mentioned only two Sebs, but Solberg, Burns and Gronholm won 4 championships in total in same period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
As mentioned Gardermeister always seemed to end in a wrong team (Seat, Mitsu just as it started to loose out and then Skoda). Hirvonens career almost got destroyed by the too early move to a full time drive at Subaru (granted this was also due to Burns illness).
His method of "buying" seats for "almost" ready drivers is disliked by a lot of people. The typical argument is that it created a new "norm" where even relatively established drivers with good speed are expected to "bring budget". Recent example Tidemand as a WRC2 champion didn't bring money, while Suninen who often was slower than him was pushed in with budget.
(btw. Veiby's method of never paying anything seems to be the other extreme, probably not good either). Sure this effect of "buying" places has been there for ages, but it becoming a norm is associated with Jouhki prbly due to that 2004 Hirvonen year.
This way the amount of money people bring is becoming more important than actual skills, so that you risk getting more "weaker" drivers with money than very good ones without money. Since none of his drivers won the title in last 20 years it's not so easy to argue that the drivers he brought in were really the best.
Still waiting for you to name a WRC manager with better one...Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
After a period (1986-1999) in which Jouhki's clients had took 8 out of 14 available titles. And as was already mentioned in this topic, Jouhki already retired (i.e didn't look for new drivers) after Latvala and actually returned with new talent only in 2015 with Suninen.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
I struggle to figure out what Burnsie has to do with all this, but the fact that Hirvonen's career DID NOT get destroyed has to be counted as a major accomplishment for Jouhki as that's what managers are being paid for, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Oh yes, "buying seats", maybe the most hypocrite of all excuses. As team managers had never heard about that possibility before the big bad Jouhki introduced the method... Newsflash: securing funding has always played a big role especially in all motorsport.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
20 years without title while managing 4 drivers (5 if you count Suninen) during that period, counts as less than optimal record to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Burns was signed for Subaru in 2004. If he did drive I am not sure if Hirvonen would even drive full season with them but due to Burns not being able to drive, Hirvonen got to drive full season as n2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
That season Subaru was prbly the fastest car overall (on gravel it was without a doubt) with Solberg winning 94 stages.... Hirvonen won 2 and his best results were two 4th places. While notably C. McRae was sitting out without a contract.
Possible Jouhki's fault there was that he put Hirvonen into a position he was not ready for too early.
Jouhki got famous for it in rally in a bad way... with Hirvonen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
can anyone recall if Ogier sacked Kim V - relationship did not last long. If I recall correctly unhappy parting of ways and Ogier required his name be removed from KVs websiteQuote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
Maybe Jouhki knows JML or Meeke are out?? Would be weird for him to replace JML with Kalle. So maybe Meeke is out? Very interesting for sure. 4 car team for TGR next year? We will know soon
Kim V was partner to Emil B as well. Not good for Emil joining those "forces".Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiWRCfan
I remembered reading that Kruuda also was under Vatanen for some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
I wonder what happened to V&V Sport Management, the agency that was/is run by Atte Varsta and Kim Vatanen? They seemed to be on a roll some years ago, but according to their website the current roster includes two drivers, Aki Sahila and Max Vatanen. Neither one has been too active this year (Vatanen has no starts at all, Sahila one in a local Finnish event). In addition to Ogier, their CV includes Breen, Paddon, Bergqvist, Sirmacis and Ketomaa. Maybe it's better not to assume anything, but it doesn't look too good that all of these relationships have ended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
No-one said he's perfect. Just that based on his track record, he's clearly the best in the business. Feel free to give other names to that competition but so far we haven't seen any...Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Ofcourse Burns' tragic illness was the reason there was a seat available at Subaru in the first place, but at the end of the day it had quite little to do with Hirvonen or especially Jouhki's resume. The McRae reference was brilliant though.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Yep, with a guy who ended up collecting six championship medals. Hard to get worse than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Over and out.
very interesting read https://pushingpace.com/wrc/analysis...season-review/
To finish first, first you need to finish... in this rating Duval would have been world champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Other than the whole concept I have 2 big issues with that rating:
1. It doesn't separate technical issues and crashes. Off course multiple crashes are not included either. So Latvala and Suninen who both crashed twice in Sweden get good potential points, just like Tänak in Sardinia.
2. Stage wins/pace after retiring. Some drivers crash on start of the rally from not very good position and then rejoin and suddenly are much faster (less pressure and road position can matter). This pace is then counted in same way as pace "when it matters".
---------------
EDIT: An extreme example of how "stage results" can have rather different meaning than performance in a rally and how positions can actually tell a different story:
Mexico 2019
"raw pace points" according to the rating= "real points" + "extra(difference), based on stage times"
Latvala 15 = 4 + 11
Sordo 10 = 4+ 6
Lappi 7 = 1 +6
Mikkelsen 4 = 0 + 4
How it went:
Latvala - retired to superrally from 4th after 2 cars ahead of him already retired (Sordo and Mikkelsen), after that posted some good times on Saturday after arriving late in TC to start as last WRC , 2 stage wins in total
Sordo - retired to SR from 2nd (ahead of Latvala, but was behind Mikkelsen when he retired 2 stages before), after that was 2nd on road cleaning for Neuville, won a super special (1 stage win in total)
Lappi - won SSS (first stage, everyone remembers the jump), after that mediocre times and retirement from 5th (1 stage win in total)
Mikkelsen - retired from 1st place with everyone on the road (bare Suninen), first on road rest of rally cleaning for Neuville, 3 stage wins in total
Yet at the extremes Latvala gets 15 "raw pace points" vs Mikkelsens 4 points with less stage wins and retirement from 4th vs 1st. Lappi actually getting those points near Sordo is also pretty much a mystery to me, even without taking road position for Sordo on Saturday/Sunday into account.
---------
Sure the rating shows that Tanak is the fastest, but to tell that all you need to do is to look on number of stage wins and number of stages leading the rally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
Maybe the Englishman doesn't understand Rule number One when a Finn speaks: (one of you guys told me this some years ago...)
" A Finn is never 100% serious, and a Finn is never 100% joking."
Maybe it might be good to change your screen name to something that sounds just a little more Finn than that strange name you have so Englishman understands better:smash:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/f2...ebdb2c9713.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by mknight
TLDR my response to the linked rating:
https://i.chzbgr.com/full/5793837312/h736C9391/
as it really bothers you, you can write to him and make suggestions https://twitter.com/PushingPaceQuote:
Originally Posted by mknight
buuuurrrggghlllllaaaaaaaaaaagghhhhhhhhh.......Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
You brought it up as something worth mentioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
It just introduced a (complicated) rating that has so many issues that it in the end is about as accurate as simply looking on number of stage wins and number of stages in rally lead.
My suggestion is simply not to bother. Yes you could add tons of other variables, but weighting of these or selecting what belongs to which category would be artificial and you are back to start.
Ogier to test Extreme-E car in advisory role:
https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/14...-advisory-role
What is Extreme-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V09GONTUyg8
I wonder if this tech is what we will end up with in WRC after the hybrid years ?
Gary Boyd
@KiwiWRCfan
Gaurav Gill of India will contest Rally Turkey, Wales Rally GB and Rally Australia in the new Ford Fiesta R5. #WRC2
Phil Short, who has supervised the WRC’s young driver championships for more than a decade, will retire at the end of the season
https://www.wrc.com/en/jwrc/news/201...5--52-52-.html
Ford to return in 2022 ?!
https://twitter.com/motorpuntoes/sta...83229782794240
https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/...t_ei-F1-kiekko
finnish guys, translation please
He says it has been a bad season and wonders if it was a bad move.
Yikes! It seems as if maybe Lappi is on his way out. Why else be so vocal this time of year? Is he letti g other teams know he's available?
But he's not available. Atleast he shouldn't be, if contracts are being honored.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
I agree with you... I'm just surprised he's so vocal about the issues. Maybe his statements are being twisted around by media.
Lappi (translated from the video):Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
The season's been horrible. There is that one good result (Sweden), but it doesn't change the overall picture. It's been really challenging. The car has not suited my style and thus I've been trying to push too hard which has lead to mistakes. We made some progress during Portugal and Sardegna, but I feel like it's not enough. Ofcourse I've been thinking if the move (from Toyota to Citroen) was wrong because I've been hitting my head against the wall, but on the other hand I just make it harder for myself if I keep thinking about that. So it doesn't make sense to put any energy into that. The only goal I have (regarding Finland) is to finish. We'll see if that's good enough.
I would think Lappi would be close to Ogier in Finland... But if all this behind the scenes talk about the Citroen is true I see both Lappi and Seb struggling in Finland. Unless they announce some big changes, but other teams are also upping their game. Toyotas will dominate...
it seems they wont have the update package either for Finland, David Evans also mentioned in autosport podcast that the update will be likely in Turkey
In Sardania Ogier was saying it should be for Finland, but that might have changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Anyway in some way it's better to wait and be sure it's a big improvement. It is over a month of extra time and Finland is just one rally, while at the end of the year there are 3,5 rallies on gravel that might just decide the championship.
Still based on Sweden speed the car shouldn't be too bad in Finland.
And what Østberg achieved last year, although I'm not sure how his different driving style helped that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
That's a complete mess from Citroen. This aero update has been talked about form start of the year, they they miss the date for the rally it should be of most advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC