2021 Race 10 - British Grand Prix

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Or , to put it a different way , maybe he'll learn he can't necessarily trust Lewis to back out of an impossible move .

It's fun how there's more than one way to look at it , isn't it ?


Does it say , I knew we would touch ?

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Close quarter racing is the essence of the formula. Each driver does it with trust in the other driver to conduct their manoeuvre with skill and mutual respect. That is the essence of avoiding a collision. The unwritten rule is to avoid a collision but to race each other as hard as possible while doing so. Afterall, these are best drivers in the world.

While you chaps turn a blind eye to Verstappen's approach to racing, the rest of the grid is very uncomfortable with it. Vettel was very vocal about it in 2018. Kimi , Leclerc and Ocon in 2019. Ricciardo certainly found it a bit much as well.

The thing is most drivers on the grid don't trust Verstappen to obey the unwritten rule, as he pushes the envelop further than is required by the unwritten rule. And he sees it as beating the other driver that has gone out their way to ensure that the moment does not result in a bad crash. On two occasions before Silverstone, he has pushed the envelope to the point that a crash did occur. Singapore in the Ferrari sandwich crash that effectively put paid to Vettel's championship campaign. At Baku zig zagging that caused Ricciardo to crash into the back of him. Then there was the pointless crash at Sao Paulo Brasil, where he aggressively cut across Ocon ending both of their races and losing a race that was in the bag.

This is racing, any sensible driver would make allowance for the other driver to fight through the corner as he is not paid to back out. I find it quite confusing that you lot keep going on that Hamilton should back out. Why the hell should he. He might as well go home, hang up his helmet and retire.

The fans at the grandstand or pay TV viewers did pay to see drivers backing off. They paid to see a proper duel for the championship. And it should not be easy. It should be damn hard, and that it is.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Or , to put it a different way , maybe he'll learn he can't necessarily trust Lewis to back out of an impossible move .

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Having the other drivers think you are a dangerous and stupid driver is actually a much used tactic. Crash into someone a few times and they will most likely give you space the next time.

That is why we normally have penalty's for those things. To stop drivers from being to overly agressive. Because most of them are the agressive winners type. If we just let them we would see many more accidents.

And the lack of a meaningfull penalty here is why we will have more accidents between hamilton and verstappen in the future. Why should you back off if you can just put your opponent in the wall without consequences?

Verstappen is perhaps been the driver who has the most fearsome reputation, crashing many many times into almost everyone. Doing stupid and dangerous things almost every race in his first years.

He has improved a lot over the years, but i'm sure he will take notice here. I expect to see him being more aggressive and causing more accidents.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

Having the other drivers think you are a dangerous and stupid driver is actually a much used tactic. Crash into someone a few times and they will most likely give you space the next time.

That is why we normally have penalty's for those things. To stop drivers from being to overly agressive. Because most of them are the agressive winners type. If we just let them we would see many more accidents.

And the lack of a meaningfull penalty here is why we will have more accidents between hamilton and verstappen in the future. Why should you back off if you can just put your opponent in the wall without consequences?

Verstappen is perhaps been the driver who has the most fearsome reputation, crashing many many times into almost everyone. Doing stupid and dangerous things almost every race in his first years.

He has improved a lot over the years, but i'm sure he will take notice here. I expect to see him being more aggressive and causing more accidents.

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That would be very bad news to Redbull in this budget cap regime. They are already using up a bit of their development token to fix that crashed car. Commonsense would say tone down the aggression.

You mean the chrash serves a double cause?

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

That would be very bad news to Redbull in this budget cap regime. They are already using up a bit of their development token to fix that crashed car. Commonsense would say tone down the aggression.

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I'm pretty sure they don't care the least about the costs. They will have all sorts of workarounds already anyway.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

IMHO Max took a risk that Lewis would back out, and that is the only thing he was wrong about. As the regs currently stand, the driver on the racing line and leading dictates the corner with the stipulation that they must leave a cars width to the opposing car. Lewis was grossly off line, had missed the apex, and was carrying too much speed for a corner that would have two cars in it.

Don't get me wrong. Max would have been wise to just back out and let Lewis go wide, pass or not. Playing the long game would have worked much better. But neither driver is thinking about those details at 180 mph heading into the corner really. They are thinking that they have the corner and their opponent doesn't.... that's why they are good drivers.





You really should read the entire piece before you use it as a professional opinion that backs your own.

Quoted from the Brundle piece.....

"Max was not at fault although for his own race and championship campaign he could have left a little more space on the inside given Hamilton was bound to be compromised on that line, and perhaps have been less convinced that Lewis would yield."

If you are disappointed about an unknown source from another poster and questioning them on it, you might want to take a look in the mirror and consider how it makes you look to only use part of a persons opinion that you agree with, while ignoring the part you don't.




And in the end, even the former drivers can't agree on the issue. I don't value Brundle's position any more than the other drivers, and they have varied versions of where they think the blame lies in the case. There is no absolute authority on any of it, other than the enforcement arm that is the stewards. The rules are written in a way that they provide a guideline and not much more really. Short of having all kinds of geometric markings on any corner showing differing approach angles, spaces, limits, along with rules that clearly state "driver A owns the corner if they make it to angle XYZ first"...... controversial calls will be a thing in the future as well. But as usual, often people on the internet want to feel that their opinion is absolute fact. Come on folks.... humans are humans, subject to biases and favoritisms, whether conscious of it or not, and yelling at the internet doesn't make us win anything.

Maybe people should just accept that their opinion is just that... their opinion. Others can agree or disagree with it all they want. But it's certainly no reason to start the insults, claims of racism, and general hate and discontent. IMHO it's just childish and proves that people are grasping at straws to claim that the only valid opinion is the one they hold. Posting over and over and over saying the same things doesn't make an opinion any more valid either.... it just usually proves that the person who won't budge on their opinion thinks that the world around them is wrong and they are the only ones that can fix it.






How dare you actually focus on a way to make solid rules that allow racing and keep things safe. Pick a side, become a fanboi extremist, and shout from the rooftops! :laugh:


Yeah, the rules right now just kind of still suck at clarity, and they are leaving the door open for these kinds of things. Racing will be racing, but there has got to be a better way to sort things out and keep it somewhat safe. It's sort of a catch 22 situation.... if the rules are too strict racing suffers. If the rules are too loose, racing suffers.

But I agree the penalty system really doesn't hurt a lot of times. Especially the time based penalties, as they give advantage to guess who????... As usual the top teams. While Merc and RB can pretty much recover from a time penalty, the farther back cars are in the pack the more positions it often costs them.

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Thanks!.. Finally, the voice of reason and common sense. Agreed on all points, we are on exactly the same page on this one.


I reckon there is probably also an element of high downforce vs low downforce at play in the incident.
Lewis's lower downforce which gave him the straight-line speed advantage to be able to attack Max unfortunately also did not allow him to be able to hit the apex.. or stay in the track space that Max left for him.

...but that is obviously Max's fault, he should have known that was going to happen and should have yielded to the understeering Lewis no matter what. ;)

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Originally Posted by denkimi

Having the other drivers think you are a dangerous and stupid driver is actually a much used tactic. Crash into someone a few times and they will most likely give you space the next time.

That is why we normally have penalty's for those things. To stop drivers from being to overly agressive. Because most of them are the agressive winners type. If we just let them we would see many more accidents.

And the lack of a meaningfull penalty here is why we will have more accidents between hamilton and verstappen in the future. Why should you back off if you can just put your opponent in the wall without consequences?

Verstappen is perhaps been the driver who has the most fearsome reputation, crashing many many times into almost everyone. Doing stupid and dangerous things almost every race in his first years.

He has improved a lot over the years, but i'm sure he will take notice here. I expect to see him being more aggressive and causing more accidents.

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I get that Max has a reputation for being pushy , but pretty much all agree he has toned it down a long way from back then .

This wasn't that .
Yes , it was aggressive , and yes , it was risky , but it was also good racecraft .
He kept Lewis tight down the straight approaching the corner , and then took the racing line , knowing that Lewis would know he was too tight to make the corner at that speed , and then left room inside for him to do it .
Leclerc didn't keep Lewis in tight , and lost the fight , because Lewis had a better line in .

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

It says Max is an idiot that has to learn that it's more important to win the war than all the battles. I don't expect him to have learned that yet, he's not the brightest spark but a few more of these incidents added to his portfolio, and there will be many, then maybe eventually it'll get through.

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Perhaps.. but more pertinently it also tells us Lewis knew what was likely to happen and didn't care, he was prepared to punt Max off the track at what was it... 180mph? and all for a championship.

Well despite my own thoughts about that, we certainly can't accuse him of lacking drive or dedication to winning his 8th title. No qualms of F's given...

Interesting but also worrying times ahead. 🤔

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Originally Posted by denkimi

I'm pretty sure they don't care the least about the costs. They will have all sorts of workarounds already anyway.

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Not for more crashes every other weekend. Any more and they would not be able to bring any more upgrades for the car. The point is not about whether Redbull has cash but whether they can afford to spend the capped budget fixing crash damages rather than developing the can.

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Originally Posted by Zico

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Perhaps.. but more pertinently it also tells us Lewis knew what was likely to happen and didn't care, he was prepared to punt Max off the track at what was it... 180mph? and all for a championship.

Well despite my own thoughts about that, we certainly can't accuse him of lacking drive or dedication to winning his 8th title. No qualms of F's given...

Interesting but also worrying times ahead. 🤔

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As mentioned before Max has pushed the boundaries of aggressive racing already this year, and each time Lewis has backed out. There was always going to come a time when Lewis said enough is enough. Now Max knows that if he cuts across Lewis like that again he may very well end up in the wall.

And why should he care? Max didn't care if he took Lewis off in Imola or Spain. Throughout his career Lewis has been an impeccably clean driver but if you come Up against a guy that has shown you he's happy to take you out to gain or keep position you must stand your ground. Lewis quite rightly did this on Saturday. He took the same uncompromising approach Max took and Max paid the price.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

I get that Max has a reputation for being pushy , but pretty much all agree he has toned it down a long way from back then .

This wasn't that .
Yes , it was aggressive , and yes , it was risky , but it was also good racecraft .
He kept Lewis tight down the straight approaching the corner , and then took the racing line , knowing that Lewis would know he was too tight to make the corner at that speed , and then left room inside for him to do it .
Leclerc didn't keep Lewis in tight , and lost the fight , because Lewis had a better line in .

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You describe well the reason why a crash was inevitable at Corpse corner. One cannot keep a competitor who is alongside you, tight approaching a corner and expect them to back off to let you waltz through with ease. Your competitor would hug you tight as well to force you to take a wider line through the corner. That is fighting through the corner. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Well, he did not make allowances for Hamilton fighting him through the corner and turn into Hamilton, causing the crash. It was very daft. And you chaps just keep making a mockery of yourselves describing why it was dumb driving.

BTW Leclerc has his head well screwed on. A proper smart driver that thinks well on his feet.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

As mentioned before Max has pushed the boundaries of aggressive racing already this year, and each time Lewis has backed out. There was always going to come a time when Lewis said enough is enough. Now Max knows that if he cuts across Lewis like that again he may very well end up in the wall.

And why should he care? Max didn't care if he took Lewis off in Imola or Spain. Throughout his career Lewis has been an impeccably clean driver but if you come Up against a guy that has shown you he's happy to take you out to gain or keep position you must stand your ground. Lewis quite rightly did this on Saturday. He took the same uncompromising approach Max took and Max paid the price.

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It's one thing teaching someone you are not going to be bullied... but at 180mph? That's psychopath territory.

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Originally Posted by Zico

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Perhaps.. but more pertinently it also tells us Lewis knew what was likely to happen and didn't care, he was prepared to punt Max off the track at what was it... 180mph? and all for a championship.

Well despite my own thoughts about that, we certainly can't accuse him of lacking drive or dedication to winning his 8th title. No qualms of F's given...

Interesting but also worrying times ahead. ��

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But why should he care. To back off means to let Verstappen bully his way into winning the championship. Racing is not about bullying but expert racecraft to fairly get ahead and win. Beating your opponent fair and square is where the respect is at. Not bullying. You are delusional if you think Hamilton or any other driver would put up with persistent bully driving from Verstappen.

I actually think this would give other drivers a wake-up call to not tolerate Verstappen's antics anymore also.

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Originally Posted by Zico

It's one thing teaching someone you are not going to be bullied... but at 180mph? That's psychopath territory.

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There is not a speed where such a statement should be made. It would be made at whatever speed the bullying is taking place. At Silverstone, it took place at the fast-flowing corner of Corpse at 180 mph. That is the moment, speed and corner that Verstappen sought a response.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

But why should he care. To back off means to let Verstappen bully his way into winning the championship. Racing is not about bullying but expert racecraft to fairly get ahead and win. Beating your opponent fair and square is where the respect is at. Not bullying. You are delusional if you think Hamilton or any other driver would put up with persistent bully driving from Verstappen.

I actually think this would give other drivers a wake-up call to not tolerate Verstappen's antics anymore also.

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See my answer to TBK..

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Originally Posted by Zico

It's one thing teaching someone you are not going to be bullied... but at 180mph? That's psychopath territory.

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It's racing driving. Hard lesson hard taught. Spain could have been very bad for Lewis. Had Max smashed into him he would have gone straight into Lewis side cockpit, which could have been a fatal accident. I don't remember you being so inflated about it.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

You mean the chrash serves a double cause?

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Yep, it had a double effect. The Redbull could take no further part in the race. And there was the cost from a limited budget to fix the damage. But do not mean you should blame Hamilton double times.

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Originally Posted by Zico

See my answer to TBK..

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There is nothing psychopathic about it. It is normal racing. This is how it is done for 71 seasons now.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

It's racing driving. Hard lesson hard taught. Spain could have been very bad for Lewis. Had Max smashed into him he would have gone straight into Lewis side cockpit, which could have been a fatal accident. I don't remember you being so inflated about it.

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Short memory that is why. I distinctly remember saying that this sort of racing is going to result in a bad crash one day as Hamilton would not stand for it.

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Originally Posted by Zico

It's one thing teaching someone you are not going to be bullied... but at 180mph? That's psychopath territory.

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that's attempted murder if one could prove it was on purpose.

but although hamiltons statement would make you think otherwise, i find it hard to believe it was actually his intention to send max into the wall.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

You describe well the reason why a crash was inevitable at Corpse corner. One cannot keep a competitor who is alongside you, tight approaching a corner and expect them to back off to let you waltz through with ease. Your competitor would hug you tight as well to force you to take a wider line through the corner. That is fighting through the corner. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Well, he did not make allowances for Hamilton fighting him through the corner and turn into Hamilton, causing the crash. It was very daft. And you chaps just keep making a mockery of yourselves describing why it was dumb driving.

BTW Leclerc has his head well screwed on. A proper smart driver that thinks well on his feet.

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Max left room for Lewis .
That is why Lewis got the penalty .

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Originally Posted by denkimi

that's attempted murder if one could prove it was on purpose.

but although hamiltons statement would make you think otherwise, i find it hard to believe it was actually his intention to send max into the wall.

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There is plenty of video evidence of what happened. It was a racing incident. None of it was intentional. Hamilton did not take Vertstappen out. If the video evident indicated that was the case, the stewards would have issued a race ban easily.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

He left room for Max and did not back out .
That is why he got the penalty .

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Nope, the crash was spectacular which is why he got the penalty. The disproportionate reactions also had loads to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

There is not a speed where such a statement should be made. It would be made at whatever speed the bullying is taking place. At Silverstone, it took place at the fast-flowing corner of Corpse at 180 mph. That is the moment, speed and corner that Verstappen sought a response.

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😆


Defending and intentionally punting someone into the wall are worlds apart. Keep digging..

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Originally Posted by denkimi

that's attempted murder if one could prove it was on purpose.

but although hamiltons statement would make you think otherwise, i find it hard to believe it was actually his intention to send max into the wall.

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Yes, it's quite a statement either way.

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Originally Posted by Zico

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Defending and intentionally punting someone into the wall are worlds apart. Keep digging..

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Come on, how could you say Hamilton punted Verstappen into the wall. What race were you watching mate? Kurun Chandhok detailed analysis did not show that. Palmer's analysis on Formula One TV did not show that. Somehow you saw that on your TV

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Originally Posted by Zico

��


Defending and intentionally punting someone into the wall are worlds apart. Keep digging..

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don't bother with nitro and TBK, they will defend hamilton whatever happens. no point in trying to convince thim he did anything wrong.

but as long as hamilton's not involved they are ok to discuss with.

"I was pretty far alongside him, but I could see he wasn't going to back out. But then we went into the corner and we collided"

Lewis's words, not mine.. he had also mentioned something about showing Max he was not going to be bullied.

Make of that what you will. I'm guessing it will be that he mispoke or that it doesn't prove it was intentional or whatever... but that's what he said.

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Originally Posted by denkimi

don't bother with nitro and TBK, they will defend hamilton whatever happens. no point in trying to convince thim he did anything wrong.

but as long as hamilton's not involved they are ok to discuss with.

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I know. I don't expect to convince them but the arguments offer as justification are pretty funny.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I know. I don't expect to convince them but the arguments offer as justification are pretty funny.

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I especially like the lectures on proper racing .

But , I get confused when I'm right sometimes and then other times I have no idea what real racing is all about .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

I especially like the lectures on proper racing .

But , I get confused when I'm right sometimes and then other times I have no idea what real racing is all about .

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Me too Baggie, I guess we are all extremely privileged to have our resident expert here to keep us all in check.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I knew Max wouldn't back out. He's not that kind of driver and has not learned that living to fight another day is sometimes the better option. Hamilton has learned this which is why he backed out in Spain and Imola but one driver cannot have it is way the entire time. But you've summed up on your post exactly why it is a racing incident, both drivers could have done things differently to avoid the incident.

Also, on Brundles quote


Brundle has contradicted himself in that sentence. You can't absolve Max of blame and then say he could have left a little more space, although I would change that to he "should" have left more space, just like LeClerc did even though Hamilton was further behind into Copse at that point than he was on Max. That's the difference between a driver using (LeClerc) and not using his brain (Max).

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I really don't see that as a contradiction. You can always leave more room, or even back out of it completely and let the other driver have the corner.

But we will just have to agree to disagree on the matter regardless of what others think. I can appreciate that your opinion differs from mine and you have a right to it, and that you aren't one of the people engaging in the childish personal attacks but rather debating the issue at hand.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Here's my opinion on that .
Airshifter is one of the most un-biased posters we have here .

You are not .

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Thanks Baggy. I guess through the years I've seen people get too wrapped up with the idol worship approach, and it's never suited me. I can't think of a single driver who hasn't got it wrong on plenty of occasions, and quite a few of them were considered some of the greatest. Some screwed it up less than others, but they all screwed it up at some point.

And though IMHO a mistake, I didn't think it was intentional on the part of Lewis. And it was a far shout from Schumacher putting the Hakk into the grass at 190 mph, even when the rule back then more or less allowed it. But in a similar sense, any risky move should weigh the potential consequences for both drivers, and 180 mph certainly isn't slow.

But.... much like yourself I'm not going to attack anyone over a difference of opinion.

I give up!

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Max left room for Lewis .
That is why Lewis got the penalty .

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That my friend is laughable.
Max did not leave room for Hamilton and that is why they crashed.
Look at Palmers F1 video :41sec in as to what happened at the same corner on Saturday in the sprint race.
This is Saturday:
https://haluciondemo8.xyz/saturdayF1.jpg
Hamilton was on the outside and Max on the inside.
Max clear as day drifted his car towards the outside to not give Hamilton any room
Notice that Hamilton was slightly ahead, but chose not to turn in but sensibly back out.
He didn't squeeze max, and decided to stay wider even into the entrance of corpse.
but Max still veered towards the outside uncompromisingly.

This Sunday:
https://haluciondemo8.xyz/sundayF1.jpg
on Sunday Hamilton was on the inside and Max on the outside.
Hamilton did not move towards the outside to aggressively intimidate Max, as was the case on Saturday by Max.
didn't hear a peep from you folks about that. Or the fact that he further away from the "apex" that you cguys were blaming Hamilton for being on Sunday.
Hamilton stayed on the inside and Max. Verstappen had like 2 cars widths of room on the outside, which he could have moved to but chose to move towards the inside like nobody was there. All the while knowing fully that Hamilton was well in his inside.
He tried to be uncompromising, Hamilton refused to cede (probably what Max thought he was going to do) and there was a coming together.
That's is why most folks understood this to be a racing incident at worst.
I really don't understand what the 20 pages of back and forth is about, if it simply isn't Hamilton hate.
Anytime Hamilton is involved, the hate brigade is quick to jump on it.
Asking for rule changes, special laws and wholesale changes to the regs to "punish" Hamilton.
I never heard a peep about this when Max or anyone else was involved in similar incidents.
Those were racing incidents, but Hamilton...it's something else. I wonder what?
I suggest many on here take their time and actually reflect on what is motivating their comments. Because they are beyond unbalanced.
on to Hungary

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I really don't see that as a contradiction. You can always leave more room, or even back out of it completely and let the other driver have the corner.

But we will just have to agree to disagree on the matter regardless of what others think. I can appreciate that your opinion differs from mine and you have a right to it, and that you aren't one of the people engaging in the childish personal attacks but rather debating the issue at hand.






Thanks Baggy. I guess through the years I've seen people get too wrapped up with the idol worship approach, and it's never suited me. I can't think of a single driver who hasn't got it wrong on plenty of occasions, and quite a few of them were considered some of the greatest. Some screwed it up less than others, but they all screwed it up at some point.

And though IMHO a mistake, I didn't think it was intentional on the part of Lewis. And it was a far shout from Schumacher putting the Hakk into the grass at 190 mph, even when the rule back then more or less allowed it. But in a similar sense, any risky move should weigh the potential consequences for both drivers, and 180 mph certainly isn't slow.

But.... much like yourself I'm not going to attack anyone over a difference of opinion.

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You are kidding right?
As Nitrodaze said; "I give up"
This is bizarro world stuff.
Being accused of Hero worship while simultaneously worshiping St. Max like he could do no wrong?
Dismissing all evidence to the contrary, including most professionals, other drivers and team managers?
To me this is like someone punching me in the face and accusing my head of getting in the way of their fist.
"Why is your head near my swinging fist in the first place. Why did you not duck down. or move your head to the left?
I mean I was aiming for your head, was trying to scare you but you didn't move. Now my finger is broken."
LMAO
Yeah

Redbull and Max Verstappen fans are going to implode on this one!

These were the same individuals who found it ok when Max had played bumper karts with Charles in Austria GP 2019. Oh how the times have change!

Lewis got a penalty just because the drivers and teams have asked the FIA to stop drivers from "getting their elbows out". With the penalties they handed out last week and with Russell getting the 5 sec penalty for the slight tap on Sainz, they had to do something on Hamilton.

Warrick was on a f1 podcast last week and they asked him about the complaints about the stewards - he said they are calling it like the drivers have asked them to. He said if the drivers want them to give more leeway, they would. He said what they are saying in public (let them race) is much different than what they are saying in private.

HOMEMOTORSPORTFORMULA-ONE
New twist as evidence emerges to lay blame over Verstappen crash
Sports from Fox Sports
July 22nd, 2021 5:58 am
In a new twist, Formula 1 expert Martin Brundle has revealed Red Bull believes it has the data to prove Lewis Hamilton entered Copse corner on the first lap faster than any other during the Grand Prix.
Max Verstappen accused seven-time world champion Hamilton of being “dangerous, disrespectful and unsportsmanlike” following their collision at Silverstone on Sunday.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsp...38e75e21baed80


DAMON HILL
Hill: I've never seen Hamilton drive so aggressively
Yesterday, ‎19‎:‎15
Damon Hill believes that Lewis Hamilton was in full attack mode when he and Max Verstappen made contact on the first lap of the British Grand Prix.
F1 World Champion Damon Hill believes that a collision between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen was inevitable at some point, and pointed out that he didn't think he'd ever seen Hamilton drive as aggressively against Verstappen as the first lap at Silverstone.
Hill, speaking on the F1 Nation podcast, outlined that he felt Hamilton's desperation to get ahead of Verstappen was due to what had happened in the Sprint Qualifying race on Saturday, where the Dutch driver took the lead and was able to control the race.
"I think it was inevitable, at some point there was going to be some coming together of the two, it was so aggressive," Hill said.
"I've never seen Lewis drive that aggressively. I'm racking my brains to think of a time, the only thing I can come up with is Barcelona [2016] with when it was with Nico Rosberg.
"It was full on attack mode. And I do wonder whether it was something to do with what happened the previous day in the sprint when he lost pole position."

https://racingnews365.com/hill-ive-n...o-aggressively


‘Hamilton knows he will be dethroned by Verstappen’
Date published: July 21 2021 - Finley Crebolder

Dutch racing driver Tom Coronel says Lewis Hamilton is getting “stressed” by Max Verstappen as he knows the Red Bull man will dethrone him.
The title fight between the two was taken to another level at the British Grand Prix where the two made contact soon after the start, causing Verstappen to crash out of the race.
Hamilton went on to win and afterwards, the Dutchman slammed his celebrations as disrespectful, while the Mercedes man criticised his rival for being too aggressive.
Coronel feels the incident was further proof that Hamilton is struggling with the pressure put on him by Verstappen and the fact he knows he will be “dethroned”.
“I just see that Hamilton is getting stressed by Verstappen,” he told the Dutch branch of Motorsport.com.
“We’ve known that for three years because if he leads the way, he will ask where Max is.
“He just knows he is the all-time best and that he will be dethroned. We also know by whom.”

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-...pen-dethroned/


FORMULA 1
Rencken: I believe Red Bull intend to take this further
21st July 2021, ‎17‎:‎00
RN365 F1 journalist Dieter Rencken firmly believes that Red Bull are exploring every available avenue of review open to them over the Silverstone crash.
Red Bull are certain to be reviewing every single available opportunity open to them in terms of legal review of the Silverstone crash that took Max Verstappen out of the British Grand Prix, and left the team with a hefty repair bill for their extremely damaged RB16B.
That's the opinion of RacingNews365 F1 journalist Dieter Rencken, who told Thomas Maher on the RN365 F1 Podcast that Red Bull are exploring their rights to lodge a review of the steward's decision at Silverstone.
"I do believe they will. When I say I do believe they will, I know that they are investigating every possible avenue and opportunity," Rencken said, outlining that Red Bull have until Saturday of the Hungarian Grand Prix to lodge a request to review the steward's decision with the FIA.
"Whether that comes to something, I don't know. But, I think at the very, very least, they're going to ask for a review of the steward's decision, how they reached that decision based on what evidence, and I think that evidence will be absolutely crucial.
"Who knows? Just maybe, maybe it will show up that Lewis had done something which we can't explain. It could equally prove that Lewis did absolutely nothing wrong. And therefore I think that's welcome that they do take this on review."
Asked by Maher whether he believes Red Bull's comments regarding a rumoured hiring of sports lawyers to help investigate the circumstances of the collision, Rencken outlined that he doesn't believe that the team are blowing hot air.
"I don't call it bluster, I don't believe it's bluster at all," he said.

https://racingnews365.com/rencken-i-...e-this-further

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Originally Posted by truefan72

That my friend is laughable.
Max did not leave room for Hamilton and that is why they crashed.
Look at Palmers F1 video :41sec in as to what happened at the same corner on Saturday in the sprint race.
This is Saturday:
https://haluciondemo8.xyz/saturdayF1.jpg
Hamilton was on the outside and Max on the inside.
Max clear as day drifted his car towards the outside to not give Hamilton any room
Notice that Hamilton was slightly ahead, but chose not to turn in but sensibly back out.
He didn't squeeze max, and decided to stay wider even into the entrance of corpse.
but Max still veered towards the outside uncompromisingly.

This Sunday:
https://haluciondemo8.xyz/sundayF1.jpg
on Sunday Hamilton was on the inside and Max on the outside.
Hamilton did not move towards the outside to aggressively intimidate Max, as was the case on Saturday by Max.
didn't hear a peep from you folks about that. Or the fact that he further away from the "apex" that you cguys were blaming Hamilton for being on Sunday.
Hamilton stayed on the inside and Max. Verstappen had like 2 cars widths of room on the outside, which he could have moved to but chose to move towards the inside like nobody was there. All the while knowing fully that Hamilton was well in his inside.
He tried to be uncompromising, Hamilton refused to cede (probably what Max thought he was going to do) and there was a coming together.
That's is why most folks understood this to be a racing incident at worst.
I really don't understand what the 20 pages of back and forth is about, if it simply isn't Hamilton hate.
Anytime Hamilton is involved, the hate brigade is quick to jump on it.
Asking for rule changes, special laws and wholesale changes to the regs to "punish" Hamilton.
I never heard a peep about this when Max or anyone else was involved in similar incidents.
Those were racing incidents, but Hamilton...it's something else. I wonder what?
I suggest many on here take their time and actually reflect on what is motivating their comments. Because they are beyond unbalanced.
on to Hungary

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These chaps are bent on their views. The reality of what actually happened is of no concern to them. So l think you are wasting your time explaining to them. Verstappen's car could be on top of Hamilton's car and these chaps would fail to see it so.


One cannot have a reasonable conversation with people unwilling to at least stop and take in the facts and then objectively review it and accept some of their views might be incorrect. You can't reason with these sorts of people. Dialogue is pointless. It is this sort of mentality that drives division among peoples and provide the bedrock for prejudices of all sorts.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I really don't see that as a contradiction. You can always leave more room, or even back out of it completely and let the other driver have the corner.

But we will just have to agree to disagree on the matter regardless of what others think. I can appreciate that your opinion differs from mine and you have a right to it, and that you aren't one of the people engaging in the childish personal attacks but rather debating the issue at hand.






Thanks Baggy. I guess through the years I've seen people get too wrapped up with the idol worship approach, and it's never suited me. I can't think of a single driver who hasn't got it wrong on plenty of occasions, and quite a few of them were considered some of the greatest. Some screwed it up less than others, but they all screwed it up at some point.

And though IMHO a mistake, I didn't think it was intentional on the part of Lewis. And it was a far shout from Schumacher putting the Hakk into the grass at 190 mph, even when the rule back then more or less allowed it. But in a similar sense, any risky move should weigh the potential consequences for both drivers, and 180 mph certainly isn't slow.

But.... much like yourself I'm not going to attack anyone over a difference of opinion.

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I honestly find it very hard to reconcile your opinion and how you can't see that both Saturday and Sunday were very similar but the other way around. I agree, we'll have to agree to disagree but I'm scratching my head here at people that think Hamilton was solely to blame for something Max clearly had and that we've shown has responsibility in as well.

Anyway, it's great to see this topic has somewhat ignited this forum again. It's been too quiet the last number of years.