M-Sport Ford World Rally Teams

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

why ? he doesn't like money ?

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How can he make money by staying in the WRC and developing a car that no one else is buying or (except one or two customers) having serviced?
I’m guessing the potential prize money and sponsorship money doesn’t cover costs of participation?
If the answer is that it promotes the other models they build and sell, then fair enough, but does the WRC car really help to sell the other formulas they sell, it do those cars sell based upon their own success?
I honestly can’t see why m-Sport would stay at this point.... no top driver, no manufacturer support, no main sponsor = lose money.

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Originally Posted by T16

How can he make money by staying in the WRC and developing a car that no one else is buying or (except one or two customers) having serviced?

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The same way he was before the new regulations and Ogier came along? The WRC program was the glossy front of the rally side of the company, where the real earning was done by the sale and support of the R5, R2 and R1 Fiestas.

With an increased focus on WRC2 next year the demand for Fiesta R5's will surely still be high and M-Sport still seem to be selling the latest spec Fiesta R5 in decent numbers (it is surely the most numerous R5 car now?).

"We're so good, we can get on overall WRC podiums. Everything we learn there filters down into all other rally projects. Now, please sign on the dotted line for a new R5 so you can compete in a local Austrian rally."

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Originally Posted by tbtstt

The same way he was before the new regulations and Ogier came along? The WRC program was the glossy front of the rally side of the company, where the real earning was done by the sale and support of the R5, R2 and R1 Fiestas.

With an increased focus on WRC2 next year the demand for Fiesta R5's will surely still be high and M-Sport still seem to be selling the latest spec Fiesta R5 in decent numbers (it is surely the most numerous R5 car now?).

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Sorry but if you look at the main R5 championships and especially in Europe, they are now dominated by the Skoda Fabia R5. The Fiesta may be numerous in total but the sales in the last couple of years have been low compared to the (newer) Skoda.

There are also other newer R5's out now like the C3 R5 and Polo R5 and these will also hit Fiesta sales. The Mk8 Fiesta R5 isnt due til July 2019.

M.Wilson spent a lot of his own money funding Ogier and I can see why he doesnt want to now run at loss in WRC with no glory to compensate. The 2017-spec cars cost a lot to run and against three full Manu teams it will need constant development.

[QUOTE=tbtstt;1195602]The same way he was before the new regulations and Ogier came along?

no - the difference between then and now is that then, they were selling loads of WRC cars, but now they have sold just two or three (I think)...

And regarding the glossy front... I can understand what you're thinking, but people aren't going to buy an R5 based on what the WRC car has achieved.

2017 WRC's are £750k... not surprising only two have been sold. And Østberg couldnt afford to run his with the cost of parts and upgrades.

[QUOTE=T16;1195607]

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Originally Posted by tbtstt

The same way he was before the new regulations and Ogier came along?

no - the difference between then and now is that then, they were selling loads of WRC cars, but now they have sold just two or three (I think)...

And regarding the glossy front... I can understand what you're thinking, but people aren't going to buy an R5 based on what the WRC car has achieved.

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They never sold many new wrc cars. They did sell most of their works cars after some rally's.
Which is actually quite a genious businesses model.

[QUOTE=denkimi;1195637]

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Originally Posted by T16

They never sold many new wrc cars. They did sell most of their works cars after some rally's.
Which is actually quite a genious businesses model.

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Where did you get the 'new' bit from? Either way, old or new, they sold loads of them, as they did with the focus' and that meant parts and support contracts too. I'm not going to profess to have every bit of information, but surely if you are not selling the product you make and you are not selling any parts too, then it's a pretty bad business model.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Sorry but if you look at the main R5 championships and especially in Europe, they are now dominated by the Skoda Fabia R5. The Fiesta may be numerous in total but the sales in the last couple of years have been low compared to the (newer) Skoda.

There are also other newer R5's out now like the C3 R5 and Polo R5 and these will also hit Fiesta sales. The Mk8 Fiesta R5 isnt due til July 2019.

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Have to remember that M-Sport had 200-250 "old" bodyshells in store when Mk8 came. How many R2/R5 they have built since? They simply have nothing to sell until Mk8 models are ready.

I believe Mk8 R2T will be homologated to JWRC 2019, so... soon.

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Originally Posted by pantealex

Have to remember that M-Sport had 200-250 "old" bodyshells in store when Mk8 came. How many R2/R5 they have built since? They simply have nothing to sell until Mk8 models are ready.

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You still can build R5 (or R2) based on used road car, so still possibilities to build new ones.

Too much fuzz. A road car a) costs more (in terms of a r5 rallycar not so much ofc) b) has all the unnecessary eq. from sound proofing to paint and is...used c) is old in every way, costs a lot and there are newer cars, which are faster.

The Mk8 Fiesta R5 is still a way off because it's built by using the ST car which only came out in July 2018. The WRC car used basic shells provided by Ford as far back as Sept 2016.

This was great for the WRC programme and new 2017-spec car but its left a big gap to the new R5 which is their bread and butter.

It's a double-whammy now - the WRC car hasnt sold and their are no new R5's til later next year.

Is there actually any relevant difference between the bog standard Mk8 Fiesta and the ST version that'd affect the development and homologation of an R5 Mk8 Fiesta? I doubt it.

I think the delay is more down to the distraction of the ongoing and somewhat problematic development of the WRC car, directing resources (man and money) towards this and possibly wishing to wait until the R5 Polo is out so they can see what the benchmark will be for this second generation of R5s.

Guys, there is no problem to build brand new R5 car in current spec and cost is same like 5 years ago. And they are still building and selling such cars.

Ford deciding to no longer sell the fiesta and focus in tht US says a lot about the company. It might be ideal for Malcom to switch makes. Afterall, he's not tied to any manufacturer and that's what makes MSport such a great company. They can go where the money is... Just have to find it and convince someone, but I can only imagine how difficult that would be. I think it will take some time before they make a big switch.

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Originally Posted by the sniper

Is there actually any relevant difference between the bog standard Mk8 Fiesta and the ST version that'd affect the development and homologation of an R5 Mk8 Fiesta? I doubt it.

I think the delay is more down to the distraction of the ongoing and somewhat problematic development of the WRC car, directing resources (man and money) towards this and possibly wishing to wait until the R5 Polo is out so they can see what the benchmark will be for this second generation of R5s.

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I was in the group at the tour of their service area for MS-RT Supporters at Rally GB. As well as seeing everything happening there close-up, we were also given a 45 minute talk by one of the bosses.

Among the masses of information we were told, in the part about the making of an R5 car and he definitely said they start with a Fiesta ST from the factory which is then stripped and converted into the rally car.

I assume this is because its a Ford (and not manufactured by M-Sport) and so has to be an actual road car to start with. Plus the engine also has to start as a factory 1.6 Ecoboost which is then 'optimised' by the engineers.

The new ST has a 1.5T 3-cylinder engine so maybe they had to wait for this to develop for the new R5 ?

Mitsubishi (given the rumors).
Anyway, it's prbly better to start before Ford pulls out completely, rater than be surprised by it like prodrive did.

Or take on board Volkswagen... Hehe I'm joking.

If M-Sport would start with another make, they would have done it already for the new R2 and R5 car they are going to homologate next year.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Mitsubishi (given the rumors).

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There's no way they would join unless hybridisation is adapted in the ruleset (which it sounds like it may be in the future, so possible but only from that date onwards)

First they need to start making road cars again not only SUV-s. Except if the future lies there.

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Originally Posted by mknight

Mitsubishi (given the rumors).
Anyway, it's prbly better to start before Ford pulls out completely, rater than be surprised by it like prodrive did.

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Mitsubishi is part of Nissan/Renault alliance, why would they use their hybrid brand ? Both Nissan and Renault make "sport" cars.

Buth both don't have WRC experience from WRC era. And are not interested at all to even try. Mitsubishi does. And they've won couple of times.

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Originally Posted by deephouse

Buth both don't have WRC experience from WRC era. And are not interested at all to even try. Mitsubishi does. And they've won couple of times.

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Mitsubishi WRC experience was not built in Japan...

European car which was built with mostly european people.

Try to understand that Nissan/Renault owns Mitsubishi brand, Mitsu people can´t do anything without owners aplication.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

I was in the group at the tour of their service area for MS-RT Supporters at Rally GB. As well as seeing everything happening there close-up, we were also given a 45 minute talk by one of the bosses.

Among the masses of information we were told, in the part about the making of an R5 car and he definitely said they start with a Fiesta ST from the factory which is then stripped and converted into the rally car.

I assume this is because its a Ford (and not manufactured by M-Sport) and so has to be an actual road car to start with. Plus the engine also has to start as a factory 1.6 Ecoboost which is then 'optimised' by the engineers.

The new ST has a 1.5T 3-cylinder engine so maybe they had to wait for this to develop for the new R5 ?

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I'm currently supervising build of R5 Fiesta, chassis of which was made from used road car with some 60k km on the clock. All paperwork from M-Sport and FIA is done and is fully correct, so I know what I'm writing. It can be ST or Ecoboost model. It needs to be based on normal road car as needs to have proper VIN number. And engine is not based on ST road car, actually engine for current Fiesta is based on some 1,8 engine from Mondeo I think. It just needs to be engine from the group. Engine for new Fiesta will be based on 2,0l from US market.

Same with the Fabia, 1.6l engine from a downgraded 1.8l Chinese market engine.
"The mass-produced engine, from which the racing engine of the ŠKODA FABIA R5 is derived, was originally introduced in the Volkswagen Lamando and ŠKODA Superb cars for the Chinese market."

And that is also, what Toyota is waiting for with their project...

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Originally Posted by br21

I'm currently supervising build of R5 Fiesta, chassis of which was made from used road car with some 60k km on the clock. All paperwork from M-Sport and FIA is done and is fully correct, so I know what I'm writing. It can be ST or Ecoboost model. It needs to be based on normal road car as needs to have proper VIN number. And engine is not based on ST road car, actually engine for current Fiesta is based on some 1,8 engine from Mondeo I think. It just needs to be engine from the group. Engine for new Fiesta will be based on 2,0l from US market.

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I was only repeating what the M-Sport guy said. THEY use a new ST road-car from the factory and strip it to make an R5.
I would assume it will be the same with the Mk8 Fiesta R5.

By the way, if its not based on an engine for the Fiesta road-car can they really say its powered by Ecoboost ? I dont think there was a Mondeo 1.8 Ecoboost.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

I was only repeating what the M-Sport guy said. THEY use a new ST road-car from the factory and strip it to make an R5.
I would assume it will be the same with the Mk8 Fiesta R5.

By the way, if its not based on an engine for the Fiesta road-car can they really say its powered by Ecoboost ? I dont think there was a Mondeo 1.8 Ecoboost.

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They won’t use much if the original engine Eddie. Eco boost is just a brand name.

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Originally Posted by T16

They won’t use much if the original engine Eddie. Eco boost is just a brand name.

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'Ford Ecoboost' is ok but using the words 'Powered by..' is misleading then.

Good article by Henry Catchpole: 'Behind Closed Doors at M-Sport':

https://drivetribe.com/p/behind-clos...S6yrgGh94_b1yQ

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

'Ford Ecoboost' is ok but using the words 'Powered by..' is misleading then.

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Misleading? what did you actually think eco boost was?

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Originally Posted by T16

Misleading? what did you actually think eco boost was?

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Eddie believes MS-RT means MSport Rally (or Racing) Team, rest of the world knows it´s MSport Road Technology.

I know what Ecoboost is, but do enlighten me how it relates to the Fiesta R5 engine, if its based on a 1.8 Mondeo engine (Re the oracle, br21) ? There has never been a 1.8 Ecoboost.

And I know that MS-RT stands for Road Technology, but the guys at M-Sport also use it as an abbreviation for Rally Team. I had about a 10-email discussion with them about this when I joined the 'MS-RT' Supporters Club .


https://i.imgur.com/YwcbI5i.jpg

I always thought Ecoboost was just marketing speak for 'It's got a Turbo'!

Weren't/aren't they putting Ecoboost branding on NASCAR cars, at least at some point? I don't think they're too fussy...

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Originally Posted by the sniper

I always thought Ecoboost was just marketing speak for 'It's got a Turbo'!

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Basically yes. Starting some 8? years ago all european petrol cars went from 1.6-2.5 L naturally aspirated engines to 1.0-1.8L turbocharged. Mainly to reduce "paper" consumption/emission values. This was generally reffered to as "downsizing".

Ford was doing exactly the same as everyone else but called all the new engines with turbo as "ecoboost". (some epic marketing skills involved)

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Originally Posted by the sniper

I always thought Ecoboost was just marketing speak for 'It's got a Turbo'!

Weren't/aren't they putting Ecoboost branding on NASCAR cars, at least at some point? I don't think they're too fussy...

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As I said before, a livery advertising Ford Ecoboost is fine. But 'Powered by' indicates the rally car's engine is a 1.6T Ecoboost from a Fiesta. Not some M-Sport in-house creation based on something else from Ford (that was never an Ecoboost at all).

For the WRC car M-Sport state:
Designed to new technical regulations introduced ahead of the 2017 FIA World Rally Championship, the Ford Fiesta WRC is M-Sport's top-specification rally car – producing 380 bhp and 450 Nm of torque from its bespoke Ecoboost-powered 1600cc direct injection engine.

Ford's take on the Eco part:
Direct injection helps EcoBoost engines achieve these remarkable mpg figures. A precise, highly pressurised amount of fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber. This innovative and effective way of using fuel means EcoBoost engines use only the bare minimum amount of fuel needed.

The guy from M-Sport at Rally GB told us the WRC car uses 1.7L of petrol per mile. Not very eco, but plenty of boost !

Eddie, you know that rallying is all about at the top level? It's about companies selling cars. They are going to milk every avenue and opportunity to sell their end products and market the hell out of the investment that they have made in their respective WRC programmes.
Ford Eco-Boost is, as others have said above, the terminology they give to the small petrol engines and how they are inducted.
On one hand you're professing to know a lot about M-Sport and the WRC in general, yet on the other, you are surprised that M-Sport are using Eco-Boost terminology for a non-standard competition engine, that shares little with a road-going variant.
Eco-Boost is a brand and M-Sport and Ford are using their competition programmes to promote it. Yes, it's not the same engine as Mrs Fast has in her Fiesta, but you get why they do what they do, right?

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

WRC car uses 1.7L of petrol per mile. Not very eco, but plenty of boost !

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You answered the question Yourself. Is there someone who believes WRC cars are ecological?:D

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

The guy from M-Sport at Rally GB told us the WRC car uses 1.7L of petrol per mile. Not very eco, but plenty of boost !

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Maybe ECO is short for Economic. Ford certainly does their rallying on the cheap. :o