Guys, lets be somewhat positive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Aslong as there are a few engineers with as much passion as the competitors and spectators, something will be made to appeal us enthusiasts.
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Guys, lets be somewhat positive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Aslong as there are a few engineers with as much passion as the competitors and spectators, something will be made to appeal us enthusiasts.
That's fine in theory. Who is going to pay for this - and appeal to enthusiasts? Rallying, and WRC is reliant on the manufacturers? Some series can run without much manufacturer involvement - but not rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
Debatable, the ERC is a good example of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
You have to differentiate between two things. Yes, the sport can continue on the enthusiastic basis but in that case it will become a minor curiosity like horse races instead of a global show run by one of the biggest and richest corporations for their marketing purposes (as it has been for past decades).Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
No, all ERC cars have been developed and homologated by manufacturers who are either directly or indirectly involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
And they are mostly bought and runned with private funds. Because obviously there is some sort of economic gain to be had with those sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Those sales are possible becuase of the marketing value of the championship which is largely created by the manufacturers. When they leave the public interest will go down and so will the total sum of money circulating in the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
If starting from square one WITHOUT FIA and have own series, I could think manufacturers will have another look. Rallying do not depend on FIA or manufacturers. If new rules allow some sort of cars (maybe even hybrids) it´s possible to start all over again.
I think at least the fan base, will be there, to begin with.
The first link is pro EV but the second it isn’t; they mostly quote German or French automotive sources (VDA, CCFA). The EU official document, with 3 options for future emissions standards (only option 1 seems possible for ICEs to cope), can be seen here: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better...ries-and-busesQuote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
For sure we’re free to remain positive, but one must admit that EVs lobby managed to establish a politically correct view on EVs among the general public and the politicians won’t dare to question it, even if they should.
Erm, those are cars originally built by manufacturers, and homologated for competition. You can't run a 'home built' special in FiA series......Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
F1, WEC, etc could in theory run without manufacturers. LMP2 has had a Gibson engine for all cars, and an off the peg chassis by several motorsport constructors. Rallying needs manufacturers - unless there is a drastic change from the FiA; and then who finances any venture?
Rallying never really needed manufacturers, they are only needed because of the stupid homologation fia-cashcow rules.
Everyone should be able to build and drive a car as long as its build according to the rules, just like in wrx or f1 or dakar or lemans or..
The forced need for manufacturers aproval has been holding the sport back for many years now. Without that rule, we could have seen many private firms operating their own cars, just like ik most other motorsports.
mmm it seems to me that m-sport is the only name that fits. "open" section (as r4 kit) didn't bring out very muchQuote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
The difference between rallying and most other motorsports is that rally cars must be street legal. I'm sure that has something to do with keeping the manufacturers in the homologation process. Not sure though how they apply that to the scaled down tubular chassis of the 2022 cars...
Rallying in principle didn't need them but without them it would be just a minor sport. It's them who made it big thing with big money. So, yes, it can run without them but be prepared that the profile of the sport will suffer hugely.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Isn’t it so they can drive them on the roads between stages?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I meant that because of manufacturers homologating every rally car, they can be street legal. The current Toyota Yaris WRC is basically just a tuning kit added to a street Yaris. But if you had a Prodrive GT Turbo Rally1 or something, there wouldn't be a corresponding street model. But I don't know that much about these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
For what it's worth, I wouldn't care at all if we lost the road sections.
I wonder what would cost more, making rally cars road legal or putting them on a trailer between stages?
Have you ever been to a rally? Where do you want to put those trailers? In at least half of the stages around the world there is nowhere to place some trailers dozens of kilometers around the stages and moreover some trucks with trailers may not even pass the road sections!Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte66
Easier then to let rallycars travel on their own between stages. But why should authorities bather. Rallycars has steering, brakes and safety zones for driver and passenger. They fit any traffic situation without having any question of being street legal. Authorities could easily let them drive without legalization.
No road sections and non-road legal wacky racer prototypes not based on road cars... Are we still calling it rallying?
M-sport and prodrive come to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
But in so many other classes there are many big private teams participating, so one has to ask why the wrc does not attract them.
I doesn't need to run without them. It just needs to be possible to build and drive a car without them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Just like most other top series, like f1, like wrx, like dakar. Big manufacturers will still win the titles, but local teams can also build a car and participate. They don't need to find and convince a manufacturer to do it.
They don´t need to be wacky. Just think of the costsaving. So yes it´s still rallying. Rallycars on stages is rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
The cars being on the road in between stages was part of what makes Rallying. That's not being all sentimental, it's simply a pillar of what makes the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
3 "pillars" that make rallying for me:
1. driven on normal roads, that are used for normal driving outside of rallies (else it's circuit racing or rallycross)
2. cars drive between stages on normal roads (else it's hillclimb)
3. cars resemble passenger vehicles that are driven and can be bought by public, resemble both in appearance, and method/style of propulsion. (else it's like autocross buggys, something "alien")
- so RWD cars from 1970s that nobody drives today are "historic" rallying for me, but not something to compete in on top level today
- when cars are run on petrol, rally cars should drive on petrol, when cars are hybrids, rally cars should be hybrids, when cars are electric, rally cars should be electric. At this very moment all 3 are available and used, so all 3 work for me). But running say on methanol like dragsters or something completely alien like an onboard chemical reactor (mixing 2 chemical components to generate energy) is just wrong for me. Similarly if in the future 99% of vehicles are electric, it would be wrong for me to have rallycars running on some synthetic petrol.
I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
As many said, we have to adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Adapting could mean no liasons. But stages like before. Of course cars people can buy. However that "autocross, alien" thing can be used on WRC17 cars as well.
The thing with the stock-based cars is actually the simples of all. Majority of cars coming in the stock market in the future will be useless for conversion into rallycars therefore rallying will have to take the prototype way. There is no other choice.
What, nobody drives new BMW`s and Merc`s anymore, or Tesla RWD models? And all the populaar models are available in 4wd?:D
Electricity madness will soon go by, i am more than certain that there will be some alternatives soon, until then ICE will not go away. Sure, they will have hybrids, sure we will have EVs in the futuure also, maybe even some full EV badge...but the group will have another badge, that will remain ICE. There is no known way to build batteries with normal range, without destroying the planet and there aren`t powerlines that can recharge those thousands every given moment. I don`t also see that even all the new real-estate developments are thinkg about it, not to mention old households. Come to think of it, i don`t know even know how efficient emergency services are dealing with batteries.
When we have laws, that all the new households/shops/ highways etc will have to have X number of charging points, all the old households in the cities, countryside etc have to have charging points by the year of Y, there will be many...many years gone by.
Exactly what I also think.. At the moment it's like ,,peer pressure''.. Every brand has to do it coz other's are doing it too..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
Hope the EV hype will calm down soon..
That's not only about EV. The pressure on emissions makes the engines very difficult to addapt for race use. Euro 7 is coming and there seems to be nothing which can stop it from going into application. Miller/Atkinson-cycle engines used already by Toyota and Mazda are near useless for racing and the others will have to abandon power for emissions as well if they want to continue with ICE. If you speak with any engine designer working in automotive today he tells you that when they design a new engine, the first thing is emissions. Only after that they can think about power. That is true even for brands like Porsche.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
But ofc it is. This has lasted already for a while and is going to get worse. I was saying that full EV is not going to happen, probably ever.
Thinking about motorsports and probably the next step in production vehicles Audi`s idea of an "EV" with a TFSI generaator comes into mind.
In the post, you reacted to, I didn't speak about EV but about the automotive industry taking a path which is very unsuitable for the current homologation rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
I didn`t react to your post. :)
In Finland both BMW and MB sell more FWD than RWD cars (mostly because bigger models are sold AWD) Most of Tesla´s are sold AWD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Since start of WRC rules the top rally cars have very little in common with normal cars. But they still look like them from the outside (with some tuning kit).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Which is my point. Even a "shell" with spaceframe inside is more of a rally car for me than a buggy with single or in-line seating that runs stock engine and components.
As an example when I watched ROC some time back with Loeb etc. the buggys just simple were too "alien", while the touring car Megane which had nothing in common with stock on the inside felt more right.
Petrol/diesel RWD cars are a very small minority of sales. Even BMW left them with 2 series and then with new 1 series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
But you know very well what my comment was aiming at. Some people in UK claim that the only "real rallying" is NA RWD Escorts from 1970s, similarly some people in Scandinavia only count RWD Volvo 240s and similar as real rallying.
Back to your original trolling response there are modern RWD rally cars as you know. Going from Porsches over Aston Martin, Nissan 350Z and Fiat 124 to the modern Alpine. They indeed do count as rally cars for me, but they have one thing in common... they are hopelessly outclassed by 4WD cars on any rallies that are not on tarmac.
That is true yes, on slippery surfaces there is no match for the AWD.
But they do market well for a certain group of people... though probably also without rallying.
I never talked about buggys either. But rallies with non-homologated cars, looking or coming from street cars, maybe without liasons, is very much in the tube for the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Once current manus were in favor of having full protos (without any link to the industrial production, apart a silhouette body) from 2022, what’s the reason to keep private tuners unable to develop, build and run WRC cars?
Even if it’d be hard to find sponsors eager to fund top private tuners on a complete WRC program (probably only Red Bull or a middle-east country), opening Rally1 to private tuners would be a smart way to boost the series, fully justifying the rules move towards space frame chassis.
It’s possible to have street legal protos, as it happens on Rally-Raid series (which also use open public roads as liaisons). Rally homologations are a manus monopoly because one of the established rules is to have the cars built from a mass production model, which only manus are able to provide. At the moment that rule is fundamentally changed (like it’ll be from 2022) there’s little room to keep manus homologation monopoly, at least in Rally1 case.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Yeah, it's a monopoly because it works. Without manufacturers baking and know how behind no one would be able to do a competitive car. And yes, I know that some buggies in the Dakar manage to do some good results, but in the end Toyota or Mini will dominate. As all cars made by Manus dominate in WTCR, GT3 or any other category
I guess you are referring to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...ar-rally-13440
In my view this is a very cunning arrangement, it keeps the EV enthusiasts happy while providing as much range as the engineers choose to design in. In any case, efficiency of this drivetrain will not be worse than pure electric drive train and electricity produced in a modern coal power plant. They can play with battery capacity so that it can still be called a BEV (in the eyes of the EV supporters), but overall energy source weight, i.e. batteries plus combustion engine, electric generator and fuel tank, is kept in check. All in all, Audi may once again be the rally(raid) groundbreakers as they were with 4WD. They can claim (irrespective if true or false), that as battery technology develops, the role of the combustion engine is gradually reduced in this series hybrid drivetrain. As I said, very cunning in my mind.
On the other subject, I fully agree with all of you that suggested FIA should drop the requirement for homologation coming from the manufacturers. It is correct that the profile of the series depends on them being present, but the entries can be boosted by private companies preparing cars on their own. Again, as it was mentioned, nothing to prevent these cars being road legal. And although finding the budgets to undertake such projects is not easy, companies whose bread and butter depends on it, will find a way.