Main issue according to the 4 knowledgable guys on the AR Podcast is that Rally3 will still be too expensive for beginners and too slow for the talented/ambitious/wealthy.
Time will tell.
Printable View
Main issue according to the 4 knowledgable guys on the AR Podcast is that Rally3 will still be too expensive for beginners and too slow for the talented/ambitious/wealthy.
Time will tell.
In gravel counties yes, in asphalt ones there is nothing left to be replaced. Even here where we once used to have around 50 Evos per event we have a handful maximum now.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
There is no point talking about some imaginery miracle supercheap fast cars which don't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Why would a beginner be getting into a Rally3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
And more specifically, a new one. In a couple of years we could expect to see second-hand Rally3 cars on the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
I think quite the same as you, in Spain Evos and Impreza were really common cars, especially Evos, and in last year them disapear in big numbers, becoming quite rare even in regional events that some years ago could have many.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Have the N5 cars taken that place?Quote:
Originally Posted by m-ast
The same was said about Super 1600 cars when they appeared. As far as I remember their price was also about 100 000 €? But at the end of the day this class produced many future champions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
S1600 were more expensive, also add 15-20 years of inflation. Those were really very expensive cars, also to run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
For someone who raced in an Evo for the past 5 years, it's starting to get very difficult to get material for the cars, especially differentials and racing gearboxes. You can still find them around, but the price is very high. Also, most of the cars already had a big crash in their lifespan and you can only mend 15 years of materials to a certain extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by m-ast
100 000 euros of 2001 is about 130 000 euros of 2020.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Also remember that S1600 cars were FWD.
As many of you have mentioned, will be interesting to see how the Rally3 cars will perform on tarmac. In last year's Tour de Corse the fastest JWRC driver was around 3-4 s/km behind the fastest RC2 driver.
Give Rally3 a chance. I think it will fill a gap in the Rally pyramid. Looking at the Fiesta test car, and seeing how strong in torque, and low revs it runs on, it reminded me of a N4 car. Lets hpe it is very durable, so running costs are kept low!
But, I feel the cost of all FIA rally classes have jumped a class in performance and also purchase price. So maybe we need a Rally6 class for people wanting to try rally, and dont have the skills to use an older car, and maintain it themselves.
The old R1 Fiesta was bulletproof, the only thing people changed was tyres. The car just worked and worked.
Maybe Rally6 is needed in countries where the ASN have no will or skill to make a one make cup!!
I think something like Rally5-kit could be an answer. Some cheap and easy kit with that everyone would transform any civil car into FWD starter rally car. Ofcourse only if FIA can handle situation better than with R4 kits.
IMHO the basic level doesn't need to be FIA controlled at all. Nobody goes international with such cars (except for Renaud Bronkart). Therefore for me it makes sense to keep te entry level under national ASN governance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
For some units yes, but not in the numbers of previous Evos, also most times N5 are used as rentals for one event, they are not so much reliable in my opinion and people don’t want to buy except there is a cup for them, last gravel champ round of the year only had one N5 competingQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I 100 % agree, but Sulland was talking about cases where ASN are not competent and not willing to make entry level cup.
FIA can not substitude the national ASN job. If the ASN is incompetent than there has to be an organized movement among the ASN members to replace the leadership. Easier said than done, I know, but FIA can not take care of that.
Can someone suggest who the first (type of) likely buyers are going to be for the Fiesta Rally3 ?
Is not the inflation from year 2000 to 2020 more than 30% in europe? In Norway it has been close to 50%.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
That is a good question, since we don't yet have them eligible for any points in any series. Maybe people will have to wait for confirmation for where to run it in 2021 and how their current situation evolves (for example if they damage badly an old Evo or do well in a cup for Rally4 cars and plan to go further).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
We have to assume that national ASNs find a class for them inside their systems.
I see them as a possibility for young up and coming drivers, as well as people with no international ambition, but that want to drive a modern 4wd in the national series.
For this price today you can get an old and well used DS3, 208 and maybe a Fiesta Mk1, without all upgrades, and that will not fight for podiums.
Then it is better to have a brand new modern rallycar, and fight for wins in a tier 2 class.
I also hope that ERC finds a place for this class as ERC2, and I guess in WRC Rally3 will get its place.
Dirtfish have written a piece on it, and hopefully they are more or less right.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/fia-expec...ltiple-series/
But lets wait and see. A lot will be answered when we see the car in a real rally, driven by a good driver in anger. And from what I have seen from the prototype, the 400nm will make it an easy car to drive. I hope we all will be impressed by how quick they are.
It won't be hard to have Rally3 in next year rally series, inside current classes or as a new one. The main doubt is on the final rules; when it was decided to extend the engine limit to 1620cm3 it was told that the restrictor would be seized according to the cars engine capacity but in June the FIA imposed a 30mm restrictor for all the cars. That hurts the cars with smaller engines and unless those can get a lower weigth it may be hard for manus like Peugeot or Renault to join Rally 3.
Rally3 -> RC3
R3 -> RC4
I have asked you already once. Why do you think that a bigger engine with the same small restrictor would have bigger power? IMHO it's opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Come on mate, how can you believe that a 1.2L engine can match a 1.6L engine using the same restrictor? If engine capacity doesn't matter why don't we see manus building R5 cars with 1.2 or 1.3 engines?
Does the old R3 still exist in 2021?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Difference is more in torque, not top power?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
a bigger engine needs more air.The small restrictor from a smaller engine will not allow enough air ,to full its bigger cubic displacement.This engine will not rev as it has to rev,so yes depenting to how smaller the restrictor is,maybe has same or lower horsepower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Horsepower is at upper revs,where the engine could not breath correctly due to smaller restrictor.
Torque will not affected so much,maybe not at all
All these can happen when the restrictor is way to small for the bigger engine at our example.
Yep, I can understand that when using a small restrictor the engine capacity difference won't be so damaging, but it'll always be noticed, both in power and torque. That's why weight classes are needed.
DS3 has homologation until 2022, and Clio until 2025Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
FIA Hologation is still valid.
IMHO that's wrong and illogical comparison because R5 cars have larger restrictor for such cylinder capacity (21% larger). If they would run smaller restrictor it's possible the teams would select smaller engines because for every air quantity there is an ideal engine size. Otherwise if bigger engine would be always better it would make sense to run 6 litre V12 with 30 mm restrictor. That is obviously a nonsense. You loose power at high rpm because you can't fill the larger chamber with enough air. With bigger engines everything is heavier you loose power by accelerating the inertia of the heavier parts, in larger friction areas, with more oil inside etc. There is no point to have larger engine than necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Of course we have to take into account other factors which speak for selecting larger engines for R5 such as reliability (since they use stock engines), cooling (since they use stock engines) or large enough valves (since they use stock engine and can't enlarge its cylinder diameter) but all these three factors goes down with smaller restrictor.
Another factor is level of turbo boost. With R5 it's given and same for all. With Rally3 it looks like they don't run on the same given maximum level. Maybe Br21 can add somethign here.
I think you added enough ;)
How can R5 32mm restrictor be 21% larger than Rally3 30mm restrictor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Sorry, my bad. It's 14%. For some reason I counted with 33 mm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I was hoping you'd get it wrong again…;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Honestly, I wish you and the others are right on this matter, but I’ll only be convinced when Peugeot and Renault present their cars; with so many ups and downs on Rally3 rules and having R4-Kit fiasco in mind, one wonders if the FIA really know what it’s doing.
Btw, it seems that Rally3/4 and 5 can also get a mild hybrid kit, just like Rally2. https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/ar...klassen-45462/
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/season-2...om-the-inside/
They are saying; The Fiesta Rally3 will be available in January next year.
Was'nt the original plan to homologate 1st march?
Any chance of the GR Yaris becoming a Rally3 car ?
Or Rally2 like the AP4 car that's been developed in Australia. Are the Regs much different ?
It looks great:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/how-the-t...ed-down-under/
Probably a Rally3 for sure. And it would be a great contender. For Rally2 it is still on the plandQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
https://dirtfish.com/rally/toyota-se...y2-and-rally3/Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
It doesn't actually have to be homologated before it's sold - or at least orders taken for future delivery. The cars could be sold and used on National or lower status events before homologation by FIA. Once homologated they can be used on international rallies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland