Both occasions refer to super specials, but in a way it's true. I just naturally skip them because it doesn't really tell anything if you win a mickey mouse stage in Mexico ;)
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Both occasions refer to super specials, but in a way it's true. I just naturally skip them because it doesn't really tell anything if you win a mickey mouse stage in Mexico ;)
i get what you mean but in the statistic books it goes as a first stage win, mickey mouse or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Tänaks first "real" stage win was then in Portugal 2012, SS4, his 5th event.
Neuvilles Argentina 2012, SS13, also his 5th event.
You don't have to be fast on your first WRC outing, or on your tenth, if you have the budget to "gather experience" for a couple of seasons. I wouldn't be so sure that's the case with Tidemand, so he better show something and do it soon. Yes, the competition is extremely tight right now in the main class, but still, for a driver with Pontus' reputation these first three rallies must be classified as disappointments. At the moment Tidemand reminds me of Tapio Laukkanen - Finn who could match anyone in F2, but just couldn't come to grips with WRC machinery.
Tell me just who had full financial backup and had not to worry about consequences excl. wealthy norwegians??Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
What I'm telling you is that the likes like Neuville, Ogier, Tänak and Latvala were setting fast times right out of the box and actually cannot remember anyone who was setting uncompetitive times and went on to challenge podiums and wins on constant basis. Just the history of rallying does not back up your theory Per.
I'm not writing him off but even Greensmith is looking more promising at the moment. Hopefully we can see Pontus's real speed in Wales, I really really hope so.
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And these are stage wins. If my memory serves well they were matching top speed or being close to top pace right from the box. Yes, usually if a young gun goes berzerk they crash. And oh boy they crashed but the speed was there from the start for anyone to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
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Unless he has budget for quite a few more outings after Wales, he could do with showing something in Wales. He has shown nothing in terms of pace in 3 rallies so far....
Not true. Was only for 2017 (and still Østberg ran a private car, only entered always by M-Sport)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
Maybe not impossible, but definitely far more difficult than before 2017. There was a good interview with Prokop abour a year ago, and he mentioned some challenges with the new cars. His team had always ran a private WRC spec car, but apparently with the new spec there is a massive ramp up in the costs. All the carbon fibre aero which gets torn off all the time apparently means massive extra maintenance costs compared to previous spec cars, so running WRC spec now becomes almost impossible for anyone except the manufacturers.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Prokop's team joined together with Ostberg's, trying to make it work, but as you can see, it didn't last very long.
That is true. It's simply more expensive. But not prohibited by the rules like in 2017.Quote:
Originally Posted by USER47
Another thing might be that the competition across the field is a lot tighter than before. There's now four factory teams and all their drivers could have podium pace. The cars are also more reliable, as we saw in Turkey. Previously a private driver could expect to get a top 6 position by just finishing the rally with no issues.
Yeah. You are good at statistics. Leaving out everything except times...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Three rallies three different surfaces ... but true, some glimses was expected...Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Andruet
But with money.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
His best stage result is SSS1 from Turkey where he finished 3rd. On SS5 in Sweden he finished 4th. Apart from those two it've been always 8th or lower.
That SS5 from Sweden is his best speed compared to the stage winner, 0,40s/km slower. In Sweden he did 11 stages with speed less than 1s/km slower than the stage winner, but only that one stage with less than 0,5s/km difference.
Apart from SSS1 in Turkey, he was never less than 1s/km behind the stage winner in Turkey or Monte Carlo, but further - 1,27s/km being the closest difference in RMC and 1,08s/km in Turkey.
He is driving to build he's career further. He turns 29 years old in December. How much time he has to build that experience and condifence in a World Rally Car? The steps he have taken or at least planned to take this season, should've happened 3-4 years ago already.
Greensmith left a better impression than Tidemand even though he is so much younger and less experienced. That says it all. As for now, with so many drivers on the market, I don't see a place for him in WRC car. Only if he brings a big budget in M-sport but that's not to be expected
Thanks Teemu. Right words. Couldn´t have said (well tried to since january) better myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
If the plan is/was good could be discussed. (Maybe that was why you said "wrong" on TW...) ;)
What do you mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
I hope then that he has a healthy dialogue with his sponsors and a longer term commitment from them. No WRC team is going to sign him based on his performances this year so he needs that funding to continue into next year, maybe sharing third Fiesta with Greensmith again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
My recent arguments about PT has been about more than just numbers...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
answering with only statistics isn´t enough. Not to me.
Choosing Monte and Turkey seems odd, as they're very difficult events to show pace. For Tidemand, Sweden was a logical choice. Monte was considered a preparation event for that. Why not do Arctic Rally instead? Or did his sponsors want the media attention from Monte instead? Or M-Sport couldn't deliver service there at the same time?
Then, why not Portugal and Sardegna? Tidemand has had a good pace in those rallies and generally drivers starting from the back can achieve good stage times. They are similar to each other and with only a two week gap. Early enough in the season to remind the team bosses. Did Greensmith ruin Tidemand's plans by reserving the client car from Portugal?
EDIT: Also, I understand that his budget and deal with M-Sport may have meant that he must take it easy in order not to crash the car. But at the same time you can wonder why he's paying for a drive at all if he's not allowed to show any pace?
In Monte he was once faster than Suninen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
In Sweden he had throttle issues on Friday morning. In the afternoon he was a couple of times faster than other works WRC drivers, usually because they had issues (Neuville missing aero, Meeke stalling, Evans spinning). After that he was constantly the slowest works WRC. On Saturday he was also twice slower than Grönholm but once faster than Meeke.
But what is the point for all this debate? Where you imagine to reach with that? :)
It's like religious fight - you can fight however much, all parties still believe their own stuff.
Let his stage times from GB speak.
Why do we have this message board? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by meh
Spot on. No one should blame Tidemand for trying, but running on a limited budget is probably the main reason for such a slow pace; his past drives in WRC cars and R5 domination have shown he’s able to do better. Fingers crossed on his GB outing.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
If you can't afford to break it, you shouldn't drive it.
I doubt its lack of budget that limits his speed. If that was the case it would have been better to drive only 2 rally's flatout, instead of 3 without being able to push.
Well, easy to say from your computer. Sooo much more ingredients in his efforts.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Personally I just want to see him show some speed, have another guy that can fight for stage wins etc..
Obviously I’m not privy to what his budget is, and what his plan beyond Wales is, but at the moment I don’t really see what he is achieving with his outings so far.
Speed certainly hasn't been there. Let's see in Wales
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Is it possible that the current generation of cars are harder to drive competitively? The aero and diff complexity would need decent testing past the limits to get used to, and if you don't have the benefit of being able to afford a heap of testing like Greensmith, well I can only imagine he is having to learn how to drive on event, which will certainly hurt performance.
I was however expecting more from him, especially on Sunday of any WRC event, as lets face it the WRC is a joke on Sunday with only 1 competitive stage, so perfect time for him to make at least 1 good stage time.
Well, Suninen's and Lappi's early success in 2017 prove otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkvy
Who both brought budget for proper programmes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
Wait...Lappi was a factory driver for Toyota. Suninen had one testing day before each event, and his Finland test was compromised because Ogier crashed the test car, so he had to use the same car as he was using for the rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkvy
I still think driving the new cars must be a bigger jump from R5's because the difference in speed is greater (R5's are almost as fast as old WRC's in certain conditions) and the proper usage of aero needs experience.
Yep and central diff use can also be a challenge but all that makes even harder to get how Greensmith, a less experienced driver previously beaten by Tidemand, seems to be more at ease on the WRC car than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Greensmith was also most of the time the slowest WRC but managed to beat a couple of drivers in Portugal here and there, Suninen once in Finland, Lappi a few times in Deutschland in addition to a great 5th place on SS7. But then again, Greensmith had an off in all three rallies (not even counting the Fafe crash where the steering broke, he already crashed on Saturday)
Haven´t got a clue, but wasn´t Greensmith testing a whole lot at MSport for several occasions? To compare with Tidemands almost none before MC and RS and one day before Turkey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
10 years ago the jump was from fwd cars to wrc cars. 15 years ago, the jump was even from fwd cars to wrc cars with 3 active differentials and even active suspension.
The current 4x4 turbo r5 cars must be probably the easiest cars in a very long time to step up to wrc cars.
It doesn't matter which car you give the real talented drivers, they will learn very quickly to go fast with even a garbage bin on 3 wheels.
There is no rule saying that a driver A, who is normally faster than driver B in a car of class X, will stay faster if both move in class Y. It has happened in the past that some seemingly great talents didn't manage to step up or vice versa. Even experienced champions were sometimes unable to adapt to new machinery.
Hanninen. Maybe mentioned in this thread earlier.
However did fast times on certain stages.
Not the best example for two reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
The first is that as a matter of fact Juho was reasonably faster with the WRC than Tidemand or Greensmith compared to his competitors in WRC cars. But that brings the second point - he was much more experienced (especially compared to Greensmith because Tidemand is hardly a rookie). Together with his age it meant that results were expected from him immediately. Nobody signs a +/-35 years old guy to give him two years to learn...
It all comes down in the end, how much time you have spent behind the wheel. Tests, rallies... Hundred of km´s or almost zero. Tidemand belongs to the latter ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
That, I can tell you is fundamental for being fast at once. Let´s see what Wales will bring. I have not so big hopes, unfortenately.
I agree with You.