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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jparker
I'm not saying Loeb is not one of the best drivers, but is he the best of the best?
yes he is...
Makinen had the same treatment in mitsubishi, Solberg at Subaru, Gronholm at peugeot and generally teams support their best driver the best way they can... the fact that you do not remember it is probably because you do not want to accept the facts because they hurt too much.
Loeb arrived at citroen in team where Sainz was paying to rally through telefonica and Mcrae with the most expensive contract in the team... he treated them like they were nobodies and discarted them like they were used diapers...
The difference between Loeb and the afformentioned sick dogs is that Loeb was man enough to make full use of the support he was getting to become the best motorsport driver ever lived so far.
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Best Motorsport driver ever? That's a big call..... He's probably the best of the current era, but best ever, hmmm. I'd check your motorsport history books before making that claim.
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Well he's not the first one to say it. For sure it is not that unlikely.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
N.O.T
yes he is...
Makinen had the same treatment in mitsubishi, Solberg at Subaru, Gronholm at peugeot and generally teams support their best driver the best way they can..
Yes he is top driver but you say about tommi and marcus.loeb had always top car the other two NO.solberg for sure is many levels down to loeb but how many years had top car?these are facts NOT
Tell me one year from 2004-2011 that loeb hadnt top car.all i want to say is that yes heaybe is the best of the best but he had the perfect conditions for that
I dont think he could take a title with evo 7 for example.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
nafpaktos
Yes he is top driver but you say about tommi and marcus.loeb had always top car the other two NO.solberg for sure is many levels down to loeb but how many years had top car?these are facts NOT
Tell me one year from 2004-2011 that loeb hadnt top car.all i want to say is that yes heaybe is the best of the best but he had the perfect conditions for that
I dont think he could take a title with evo 7 for example.
the first few championships he won with citroen (maybe2-3) the car was crap on gravel and top on tarmac then he indeed had the top car.
Makinen always had the top car apart from his last year with mitsubishi... then he moved to a championship winning car and was run over like a newborn dog from Solberg... Gronholm as well managed to lose a championship with the best car which was the peugeot...
only 2 drivers won championships with cars that where not top... Loeb and Burns.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
AndyRAC
Best Motorsport driver ever? That's a big call..... He's probably the best of the current era, but best ever, hmmm. I'd check your motorsport history books before making that claim.
you can check whatever books you like... the facts are facts...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
N.O.T
the first few championships he won with citroen (maybe2-3) the car was crap on gravel
No he was just bulding his speed pn gravel the car was ok.when you say crap you mean worse than 307?
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by the way we are off topic... if mods wake up and move the things about Loeb to an appropriate thread i can ridicule all the naysayers there... no need to show your incompetence at understanding simple facts on every thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
N.O.T
Gronholm as well managed to lose a championship with the best car which was the peugeot...
Peugeot was quite fragile that year, may be fastest car, but not the best.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
nafpaktos
No he was just bulding his speed pn gravel the car was ok.when you say crap you mean worse than 307?
yes..
plus he won against the top evolution of 206 as well...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
N.O.T
Makinen always had the top car apart from his last year with mitsubishi
NO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
N.O.T
the first few championships he won with citroen (maybe2-3) the car was crap on gravel and top on tarmac then he indeed had the top car.
Makinen always had the top car apart from his last year with mitsubishi... then he moved to a championship winning car and was run over like a newborn dog from Solberg... Gronholm as well managed to lose a championship with the best car which was the peugeot...
only 2 drivers won championships with cars that where not top... Loeb and Burns.
I don´t get it. Subaru wasn´t a top car in 2001? Right? And it was a top car in 2004? It really wasn´t.
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Back to young talented drivers maybe? Loeb, Burns, Solberg, Gronholm, those were young talents, but don't belong in this topic. 20 years ago yes...
@Rallyper why don't you talk about the prestation of Emil Bergkvist in WRC Sweden in stead? No real competition for him but for me he was far more impressive than Veiby (who also didn't have competition in his class). Very fast and tidy driving. :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rallyper
I don´t get it. Subaru wasn´t a top car in 2001? Right? And it was a top car in 2004? It really wasn´t.
Solberg was champion in 2003 with a subaru... so yes it was.
In 2001 Peugot was the best car by miles.
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Well, some people forget that no other factory team had direct support by manufacturers. I don't want to take anything away from Prodrive and other middle man, but they simply have no chance against Citroen army of engineers.
Although I have no hard proof, I believe no other team except Citroen have invested so much money for WRC development.
That's why I will never accept Loeb as "best of the best". He just purchased his titles with huge support no one else had.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jparker
Well, some people forget that no other factory team had direct support by manufacturers. I don't want to take anything away from Prodrive and other middle man, but they simply have no chance against Citroen army of engineers.
Although I have no hard proof, I believe no other team except Citroen have invested so much money for WRC development.
That's why I will never accept Loeb as "best of the best". He just purchased his titles with huge support no one else had.
At the height of their success Citroen's annual test budget was equal to Subaru's whole season budget and Citroen had more chefs than Prodrive had engineers. Having said that SKODA was not a small budget team, they had more money under Audi bosses than Citroen and they didn't manage a win.You have to hand it to Citroen they were the ultimate in professionalism. It's the same approach in WTCC, even using some of their test days in having 3 Citroen's crash into each other to replicate racing damage and how that affects the car. aero etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
tommeke_B
Back to young talented drivers maybe? Loeb, Burns, Solberg, Gronholm, those were young talents, but don't belong in this topic. 20 years ago yes...
@Rallyper why don't you talk about the prestation of Emil Bergkvist in WRC Sweden in stead? No real competition for him but for me he was far more impressive than Veiby (who also didn't have competition in his class). Very fast and tidy driving. :)
Yes, back to topics. No more crying over Loeb and others... ;)
Emil Bergkvist: Tried to mention him here and there. Maybe also on twitter. But yes, he´s one of the coming men absolutely. Doing so good stagetimes in RS and showed also what he can do by winning Adam cup last year(?) in Germany becoming Opel´s factorydriver. Have a look at www.opel-motorsport.com
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
N.O.T
only 2 drivers won championships with cars that where not top... Loeb and Burns.
Well, that is debatable, I'm not sure how much inferior Burn's Impreza was to the the 206 or Focus. I would say they were close in performance. The Accent and Lancer (still running Group A specs) were possibly inferior.
Anyway just to put your debate into perspective regarding Championship win in inferior car. I think you only need to look at the 1982 season.
Walter Rohrl in a Opel Ascona vs the might of the Audi Quattro. Now that is a championship win in 'not a top car'.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rallyper
Emil Bergkvist: Tried to mention him here and there. Maybe also on twitter. But yes, he´s one of the coming men absolutely. Doing so good stagetimes in RS and showed also what he can do by winning Adam cup last year(?) in Germany becoming Opel´s factorydriver. Have a look at
www.opel-motorsport.com
didn't you notice he achieved a great Rally Liepaja ?
For sure he is a good hope. Now let's see him on full JERC champ, in order to see what he can do on tarmac, and classic gravel events. But for sure, one the guys to follow.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jparker
Well, some people forget that no other factory team had direct support by manufacturers. I don't want to take anything away from Prodrive and other middle man, but they simply have no chance against Citroen army of engineers.
Although I have no hard proof, I believe no other team except Citroen have invested so much money for WRC development.
That's why I will never accept Loeb as "best of the best". He just purchased his titles with huge support no one else had.
which one of your legends did he ridicule and made him run away ??
Why Mcrae and Sainz and duval and sordo and Ogier did not manag what Loeb did with the citroen ?? Loeb came into the team when Mcrae was 34.... Loeb won titles until 38...
dogs of nothingness roaming the garbage cans have nothing on the greatest ever...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
vino_93
didn't you notice he achieved a great Rally Liepaja ?
For sure he is a good hope. Now let's see him on full JERC champ, in order to see what he can do on tarmac, and classic gravel events. But for sure, one the guys to follow.
Yes of course I know what he did in Liepaja. And the week before he became Swedish RallySprint Champion in 2WD in an old Astra National Class car.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
N.O.T
which one of your legends did he ridicule and made him run away ??
Why Mcrae and Sainz and duval and sordo and Ogier did not manag what Loeb did with the citroen ?? Loeb came into the team when Mcrae was 34.... Loeb won titles until 38...
dogs of nothingness roaming the garbage cans have nothing on the greatest ever...
Let go of your sweettalk of legends thar where..
Lets help each other try to talk about young talents as someone mentioned above.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rallyper
Yes of course I know what he did in Liepaja. And the week before he became Swedish RallySprint Champion in 2WD in an old Astra National Class car.
Emil was doing great job in Liepaja, same like other northern drivers like Rokland, Sirmacis or Adielsson. It was really nice fight. But this was on snow and big studs. We will see how it will be on different surfaces - gravel and mainly tarmac.
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I guess tarmac was main surfacein Germany when he became Adam Cup champion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rallyper
I guess tarmac was main surfacein Germany when he became Adam Cup champion.
For sure. But level of competition in JERC is quite higher than in Adam Cup...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
N.O.T
The difference between Loeb and the afformentioned sick dogs is that Loeb was man enough to make full use of the support he was getting ...
This is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Winner doesn't necessary mean best driver.
This is not.
What NOT does not explain or acknowledge is how Loeb transitioned from talented young driver (of which there are very many) to be 'man enough to make full use of the support'. And this is exactly what I was explaining in an earlier post.
Some of you have misconstrued comments regarding Loeb's early career, which were not about his Citroen days (WRC & S1600) but about his privateer pre Citroen career, which was not at all spectacular.
Loeb though stood out among his compatriots at a time when his wealthy and influential ASR, in collaboration with the government owned manufacturer, were looking to atone for there having been no French champion for 10 years and only one in the history of the sport. This despite this manufacturer having invested larger than any other.
From the minute Loeb was adopted by Frequelin, his career was set. From that moment on he was able to drive the car to the best of his ability without concern for the costs or fear of the consequence of failure.
It is not difficult to understand the advantages, in learning and confidence building, that support provides over other competitors who are required to consider budget limitations, amongst other expectations and which will undoubtedly influence the way they drive the rally car.
Fast forward to Ogier's beginnings. In a period in which it is variously rumoured that only a handful of drivers (perhaps 2 or 3) are paid, or have any tenure of contract, and in which everybody pays personally or by limited sponsorship arrangements, it is equally not difficult to understand the advantages a few enjoy today.
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you still did not answer who had a better early career than Loeb...
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Young Finnish talents first time driving 4X cars tomorrow. Finland rally championship in Mikkeli
Teemu Suninen Skoda s2000(toni gardemaisters car)
Henri Haapamäki Subaru Impreza WRX Sti
Fastest driver expected Juha Salo and new 208 T16 first time in rally
SS1 LIVE lint. Start time 20.2.2015 17.00 CET https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxAimEdIZrM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
PLuto
For sure. But level of competition in JERC is quite higher than in Adam Cup...
I was pointing to the possibiltiy of Emil having done some tarmac rallying before (Adam cup). Not to talk about his gravel experience, which is very good. (Doing Volvo original cup in Sweden)
Even without competition, if that´s the case, you still earn a lot of experience.
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In the French WRC assault, there was one, and only one driver. Loeb. No one else. Period.
While Sainz and Sordo will never admit that, it's so obvious that only mentally impaired person will ignore it.
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Yes that's really interesting for Bergkvist to learn tarmac in Germany, and for sure a great advantage compare to other young nordic guys. He can be competitive this year in JERC, and start his international career.
By the way, talking about Cup, do we know who plans to start in ?
In France, what I found :
208 Cup : Jérémy Toedtli (SWI), Xavier Baze (FRA), Bruno Riberi (MCO), William Wagner (BEL), Patrick Magnou (FRA), Emmanuel Gascou (FRA), Jean-Paul Monnin (FRA), Jérôme Chavanne (FRA), Kevin Bochatay (FRA), Jean-Baptiste Franceschi (FRA), Jordan Berfa (FRA), Johan Notargiacomo (FRA), Olivier Ramiandrisoa (MAD)
CRT : Damien Defert (FRA), Axel Garcia (FRA), Yohann Rossel (FRA), Denis Millet (FRA), Michel Closmenil (FRA), Thibault Durbec (FRA), Vincent Dubert (FRA), Laurent Laskowski (FRA)
CRTJ : Loïc Astier (FRA), Romain di Fante (FRA), Laurent Pellier (FRA), Jérémy Jamet (FRA), Loïc Matteï (FRA), Trystan Lucas (FRA), Samuel Taveneau (FRA), Anthony Fotia (FRA), Maxime Goetz (FRA)
Adam Cup : Romain Fostier (FRA), Xavier Crochon (FRA), Quentin Ribaud (FRA), Florian Bernardi (FRA), Antoine Massé (FRA), Theo Chalal (FRA), Nicolas Rouillard (FRA)
Some names in Germany ? (Toyota, Opel) Adam Cup is interesting with its prize, so I suppose still drivers from nordic countries ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jparker
In the French WRC assault, there was one, and only one driver. Loeb. No one else. Period.
While Sainz and Sordo will never admit that, it's so obvious that only mentally impaired person will ignore it.
Loeb came when in the team Mcrae and Sainz were in... he came as an outsider and ridiculed those two like they were amateur village club boys.
It is normal a team to focus on one driver.. Mitsubishi only had makinen, Subaru only had Burns and then Solberg, Peugeot only had Gronholm and the list goes on... it is normal and it is how business works, you always focus on your strong assets.
As i said Loeb was the only one who managed to take full advantage of the support that is why he is the best motorsport driver of all times... now you might feel sad because probably he run over your favourite boy like a Bus a stray city cat... but it is also the truth.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
vino_93
Some names in Germany ? (Toyota, Opel) Adam Cup is interesting with its prize, so I suppose still drivers from nordic countries ?
Last year's Finnish R2 champion Samuli Vuorisalo will drive Opel Adam Cup in Germany. He is definitely there to learn tarmac which he hasn't competed on yet, but of course he has his eye on the prize too. Laura Suvanto from Finland will take part too. She's good enough driver, will be interesting to watch. Emil Lindholm's name has come up too and I think Bergkvist will take part in the cup again this year, but not sure.
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Young finnish talenst live now
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Young brith Garry Pearson, with irish codriver Niall Burns, will do 208 Cup in France. He finished 2nd in Scottish Rally last year, let's see what he can do in France.
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After Ogier's win in Mexico yesterday I think this thread should be digged up with some questions:
Since at the moment no one seems capable to match Ogier's infernal pace, while we wait for Neuville and Mikkelsen to be at the top of their learning curve, let's keep talking about some young guy on the rise.
Camilli, Lefebvre, Suninen, Abbring himself (even if he is already driving a WRC) and many other. You think they will be capable to dethrone le roi in the future or they're going to be just good drivers?
I know, it's a kind of a too general question but I think this thread should survive somehow ;)
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Camilli & Abbring are close to Ogier's age perhaps. May be they don't classify young enough for this thread?!?
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Their lack of experience in WRC can classify them. BTW even if they are a bit off topic I think a discussion about them could be interesting. Otherwise ignore them and share your point of view about others I didn't talk about.
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Time will tell... All drivers have a lot of talent, but now it's up to them. You need to get everything perfect to make it to the very top (I said very top, not top 8). And with everything, it's everything you can think of. Where some sub-top-drivers write down a mistake to luck, the top-drivers analyze everything, they must and will know all of it. There are so many important subjects in this sport, too many to name really... So of the drivers you named, who will be the best? Time will tell us, who is smartest, and who works the hardest, who has the best team surrounding him etc.
For me personally Lefebvre has some work to do if he wants to get more chances in WRC after this year... Abbring and Camilli are well on their way. And Suninen, I don't know enough about him to judge.
