There was never an agenda to entertain the audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
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There was never an agenda to entertain the audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Yes, there wasn't but it is normal to try to appeal to the fans. I really can't say why people don't understand it. F1 is trying to survive in a world in which there are many entertainments and you need to fight for your survival.
If that was the case then would F1 have been in Las Vegas?Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Yes, many a sport has gone down that route and upset the purists. Take away the purity you take away the soul and what you have left is a gimmick.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
What has Las Vegas got to do with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
In the early '80s was there an agenda to spice up the show because F1 is boring? Was there an agenda or an obsession for more overtaking? Was there a need for DRS? Comedy tyres?
Entertainment.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Talk is cheap, please give me an examples. I repeat - F1 must survive in a highly competitive media environment, and for this, it must entertain the majority of its fans. If it upsets some purists, so be it. Purists always reject everything new. A few years ago it was "no overtaking, so bad", now it is "too much overtaking" and the whining continues even after the Monaco GP in which the cars were able to survive on one stop strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
As in glitz and glamour.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Did they go to Vegas because there would be numerous overtaking opportunities? Allow an underdog to win?
The unpredictability was mainly due to the evolution of technology. One would consider Pirelli's tyres as a retro-grade.
Snooker - Power Snooker, against the clock; shortened frames in the World Championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Cricket - 20/20 cricket.
Make F1 too unpredictable it cheapens the sport and F1 will no longer be the pinnacle. Who would care about genuine pace? Might as well give the drivers the same cars but then why would a team like Ferrari or even Williams feel the need to exist?
Make F1 too unpredictable it cheapens the sport and F1 will no longer be the pinnacle. Who would care about genuine pace? Might as well give the drivers the same cars but then why would a team like Ferrari or even Williams feel the need to exist?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but F1 is not too unpredictable. Unpredictable yes, too unpredictable no. Let's see the championship - the best drivers lead, same with the constructors. Let's see the teams who have won the races - McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari - the big three in recent years, Mercedes, which were expected to win sooner or later, and Williams, which are the third most successful team in history. I think that we have the right balance between show and sport. So the best guys still lead, but there is a chance for an underdog and a good show. What you want, wedge, is completely pure sport. What you want is a DTM for open-wheelers. And I think that this is the worst, which could happen to F1.
You said that "There was never an agenda to entertain the audience" and yet F1 was more than willing to go to the entertainment capital of the States to entertain.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
The idea that F1 has only recently become concerned about "entertainment" is misleading IMHO. Entertainment has been a part of the sport since races were first organised for paying spectators.
The current rules don't "allow" an underdog to win. For one thing the rules are the same for everyone, unlike the past when we have seen one team with bespoke tyres, or the time when Goodyear provided special qualifying tyres to a select few teams.
But we're going over the same ground again and again. Our views differ. C'est la vie.
I really don't like how some people on forums disparagingly to formula 1's new "upredictability" and the tire lottery. Both of these labels are undeserved. This year teams have to work harder to extract good pace from their cars. Also, some of the usual predictability was gone because at times some of the top teams and drivers have either shown a bad form, or they suffered from mechanical problems, such as gear box changes, or other penalties. I don't think it was due to some lottery that we have seen some unusually good speed from some teams. Everything we have seen this year so far has an explanation IMO. Another thing that you should remember is that the performance differentials between cars have been reduced considerably. Engine development has been frozen and engines have been "equalized" more than once. The aero rules put a lot of constraints on what teams can do. Overall this results in speeds that are very close to each other. As soon as the front running driver/car/team have made a mistake, they will be within a striking distance from those coming from behind.
The only thing I really don't like this year is that teams are forced to save tires during qualification. This does really mess up the results, and leaves fans disappointed when they see cars parked in a garage during qualification stages.
The key to entertaining is executing it in a manner little in the way of gimmicks/novelty. Let's face it, Caesar's Palace fell into the latter:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Good idea: race in Vegas
Bad idea: featureless car park behind Caesar's Palace lined endlessly with concrete barriers.
True but since 2003 there's been a number of radical rule changes. Not Schumi's fault he missed out on a golden generation of competition at his peak.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
But there have always been rule changes, radical and otherwise, for different reasons. Safety. Aesthetics. Equivalency. Current F1 is no different to previous decades in this respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
There does seem to be this view that 2000-2005 was somehow a "golden era" when races were broken up into short sprints and there's no doubt Schumacher excelled in those circumstances. Is it a coincidence that he is one of the most vociferous critics of the current rules and tyres in particular. Simply put, they don't suit his strengths.
I find the last 10 years much more radical than previous decades to 'spice up the show'. Eg. single lap quali, knock-out style quali, tyre pit stops banned, team orders banned then re-introduced, race with 2 tyre compounds, soft tyres. Can you say the same for previous decades?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Short sprints were prevalent when refuelling was introduced in 1994.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Not having an obedient team mate and the fastest car don't suit Schumi's strengths either :laugh: . He's a nice bloke though. He was nice enough not to blame the car and the team even if that made more sense to moan about.
For an entertainment to survive, modern times are much more difficult. As I have said, F1 is fighting for an audience which is also a target of football, music, movies, etc. In the 90s there were two or three big hits per year, now every week there is a new movie blockbuster. To stay home in Sunday, you need to be entertained IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
How does that work then? You can generally go to the cinema any day of the week you choose. F1 however, will only be shown live once per race.......Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
I can, because I am a translator and work in home (that's why I have time to visit this place so often lol), but most people work during the week and for them it will be quite difficult. And if the races are dull... I must admit that at one part of F1 in 2008, a season in which for a second time in a row it seemed that only McLaren and Ferrari can win, I skipped some races to go to see some movies... maybe I am an odd exception, but I still think that in order to survive F1 must be fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
DTM pure? In what way? I haven't watched that series for 3 years at least. They have idiotic rules regarding how you can race eachother, how you must pit twice, there is nothing pure about that series.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
These days no one has the possibility of being on the limit during a race, because they are always saving tyres mode. At Monaco they were racing to delta time, that is how big a joke the current tyres are.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Is part of driver's ability not going out in qualifying to save a set of those ****ty tyres for race?
LOL. These days those guys are not pushing to the absolut limit of their skills, going 2,5 seconds slower and racing to delta time is not pushing to the limit.Quote:
I don't recall there being such vorciferous criticism of the sport thirty years ago when we saw six different winners in the first eight races of 1982, and seven different winners in the first eight races of 1983. The view then was that it was exciting to see the best drivers in the best cars in the world pushing to the absolute limit of their skills and equipment.
What a complete joke.
Villeneuve another one with a brain.
The Jacques Villeneuve Q&A | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1
Every proper race fan hates these joke tyres.Quote:
Jacques, can I start by asking you what you think of the new look Formula 1 because in some quarters it is coming under some criticism, saying there is too much variety, maybe the tyres are not predictable. Do you like the Formula 1 you've seen this year?
Jacques: "I am not a huge fan, there's things I like and things I don't, but I guess that's the case for everybody and everything in life - not everybody will always be happy. But I am not a huge, huge fan right now."
Could you explain why?
Jacques: "Because it is too unpredictable on the tyre front. There is very little the drivers can do, the tyres just suddenly disappear and that doesn't seem to be to the level that F1 should be at. There have been some races this year where in the space of one lap the tyres just disappear and that is a little bit wrong, it should be more gradual."
Garry, you know, you are not the highest authority about who is a proper fan and who is not. I watch F1 since 1992 and can't remember being so entertained as in the first races of the season. However, it looks that Montreal will be again one-stopper, so we are back to days of dull, predictable racing. I hope that you are happy about that. I am glad that there is GT racing this weekend.
In previous years drivers were never told to do 'delta times'. It was purely down to the drivers to manage the tyres when you could run conservatively and then extract more from the tyres. Even this was possible in 2005 when tyre changes were banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
You really can't do that with Pirellis. The degradation is so atrocious that conservative tyre management is ever more critical.
If this is going to be another 1-stopping race, then perhaps we can assume Pirelli got a bit soft due to all this criticism they received and have already designed a bit more "normal" and durable tyres.
I agree, tire management has been around for years. Ever since refueling was made illegal even more than in the past. During the days of refueling tires could be changed with fuel strategy regardless, and fuel strategy dictated a lot more of more race strategies IMO.
They were told to slow "conserve fuel" - euphemism for team orders. Up in arms? They drove flat out for two thirds of the race and when they went wheel to wheel they were told to hold station.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
The reason why the Bridgestones and could be pushed at the end of the stint was in part of the fuel effect: fuel lessens, less weight thus the tyres can be pushed and the lap times tumble. Degradation is so bad you can't do that with the Pirellis. Drivers are scared of the "edge of the cliff" whereby the grip completely goes away and the laps times shoots skywards.
Tyre management should be about when to conserve and attack but with the Pirellis conservation is of greater importance.
Cue complaints about the tyres as Alonso goes backwards attempting a one stopper.
Blame the strategy, not the tyres.
Two people made it onto the podium with a one-stop strategy: there's nothing wrong with the tyres, whatsoever.
Never has racing to delta time been as prevalent in F1 as now. Never. You might have seen it in some races in times gone by, but never to such degree as you are seeing it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
BTW: you actually enjoy racing to delta time more than flat-out pushing to limit? I have no words to describe what I think of that if you do.
I am the HIGHEST authority when it comes to voicing my own opinion and I will keep doing that. You can keep voicing your opinion as can everyone else. In other words, you are free to kiss something that I have and which means the same as donkey.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Yeah, I guess some like seeing the best drivers in world struggle because their tyres are dead after 8 laps, I guess some like artificial racing, I guess WWF is a real sport to some people as well.Quote:
I watch F1 since 1992 and can't remember being so entertained as in the first races of the season. However, it looks that Montreal will be again one-stopper, so we are back to days of dull, predictable racing. I hope that you are happy about that. I am glad that there is GT racing this weekend.
BTW: You said DTM is pure racing and I called you up on it, I will ask again, how is DTM pure racing?
You are thinking of one race, where there were about 15 races which were completely opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
BTW: actually you are thinking of Turkey 2010 I think, the race where Hamilton started racing to delta after Bieber rammed out his teammate and McLaren were 1-2 leading by a huge margin. Yeah, that is exactly like the last couple of races have been. That is completely normal to take it easy once you are leading by a clear margin.
Today the tyres were not like they were in some other races. Very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Do you even understand what people are complaining about or do you just lash out at anyone who dares to interrupt your teenage love affair with these tyres?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Today was a badly calculated risk by Ferrari and no one will complain about tyres lasting when someone attempts to do a stint of over 50 laps on them.
Think a bit.
Today was very clearly far different from most races this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave B
They're all unique. I think that more and more teams and drivers are beginning to understand the tyres and how to get the best out of them. Alonso and Ferrari took a gamble which didn't work, Vettel and RBR did the same but knew when to go to plan B and salvage a position, Perez and Grosjean made it work for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
Fantastic strategy used today by different drivers, the tyres were great. 2 stops and 1 stops could work and teams trying 1 stops differing ways around.
In case I get moaned at.
:D
No major problem with tyres although in one race I forget which we had 4 odd stops may have been slightly to many, but they have added a good element to F1 if there are different strategies that can work.
Just DRS. So no having a go at me for being a combined DRS & tyre hater. Just the one. Unlike some who hate both. ;)
So what was different?Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
1) Pirelli brought completely different tyres to Canada
2) Same tyres as before but the teams & drivers are learning how to manage them better
3) Something else
No complaints from me.
Nice to see a natural order of the best teams and drivers going toe to toe.
Monaco and Montreal are low degradation tracks so teams will try to eke out a one stopper if they can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
You forgot option 4 - they were square this time out! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Ahhh, sorry 'bout that. Clearly I'm far too wrapped up in this "teenage love affair" I'm apparently having with these tyres to think straight :laugh: :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
5)
The championship, both of them, with the exception of the bottom three teams I believe is now statistically closer.
Better than Monaco, I am more relaxed now.
Good - don't follow through now though!Quote:
Originally Posted by F1boat
Well Garry my old son, anyone that watched Lewis going hell for leather on Sunday and wringing the neck out of the Mac and the tyres must admit it was superb racing otherwise they're not a real Motorsport fans :laugh:
Just goes to show that if you don't try and use them outside their parameters then they work fine. If you want to run them on long stints then you need to look after them but if you want balls out then you need more stops.
Simples :p
1) We don't know if the have changed the construction or the compound of the tyre. They probably haven't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
2) Considering people were doing 50 laps on those tyres and they lasted and there have been races where 9-10 laps on one set is a good result, then there is simply no way the teams have learnt to use the tyres so much better.
In all likelihood this was because of Montreal being very easy on tyres.
Yeah, don't worry, soon you will have your entertaining races with tyres lasting 8 laps and all those wonderful DRS passes to drool over like a 13 year old girl drools over justin bieber.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
But was he pushing all out all the time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Knock-on
Now you've gone and spoilt it by mentioning DRS :bigcry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
<Walks off and stamps foot like a petulant teenager would>
:p
It's exit acceleration that is of more concern but long straights and heavy braking zones are meaningless. Monza has long straights and heavy breaking zones and the tyre deg is low.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
Judging by radio excerpts and consistent lap times, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker