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Also another thing to point out. Did you see how Max passed MSC aggressively and actually made contact.
It was yet another example of him not giving his fellow drivers enough room.
He was very lucky it didn't end up worse for him.
But I'm pretty sure if he retired, his apologists would be on here asking for Mick Schumacher's head right?
He does the same thing in the very next race, but crickets from the community. LOL
He will win , Joe , but it shouldn't look too easy .Quote:
Originally Posted by joe1888cfc
Notice another more than stupid move by the Merc boys to keep him out when everyone else went in .
But , it's only stupid if you want to win .
It was brilliant , on the fly thinking , to come up with that in less than a lap when Max got damaged , so that the whole shootin' match would be closer going into the summer break .
It would have worked out perfectly , but Fernando couldn't hold him off until the last lap for the most spectacular of finishes against his former team mate .
And , I would imagine Merc is in the background at Aston trying to help squeeze the needed fuel from the tubes for the appeal so Lewis doesn't get too many points more than Max here .
Hamilton is has been very lucky. But at the same time he is very consistent, even on his worse days he still finds a way to get points. For a championship run that is very important.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe1888cfc
Verstappen on the other hand has only had bad luck. Secondly, he is almost a all or nothing type of guy. I wouldn't be surprised if the narrative at the end of his career is he one of the best driver who never wins a world championship.
Maybe it was just racing.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
The lockup was due to immense pressure Hamilton placed on Alonso. With that kind of pressure, he was going to pass him at some point. He had to protect his car which was the main reason why it took so long to get past. Hamilton was driving with his head. Something Verstappenb could learn from l think.Quote:
Originally Posted by joe1888cfc
It ain't over until the fat lady sings. Don't write off Redbull and Verstappen yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
Truefan was arguing that Alonso didn't see the "big picture" - when in reality Alonso did see the "big picture".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
You should not be fat shaming people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
You are not a fat boy now are you F1nks? It is just an expression, no particular fat lady was referred to. Besides, it is not a shame to be fat. I can of like round ladies myself. It is you who is making it a shame. Which it ain'tQuote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
You have no sense of humor at all do you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
https://youtu.be/nDoER71XnNo
LolQuote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
Fat people should be shamed as much as possible. Nobody gets better by accepting and promoting their unhealthyness.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
Fallout from this weekend continues - Leclerc engine was ruined, so he will be facing a grid penalty likely later this year for a power unit change.
Bottas and Stroll penalty should have been larger. They only got 2 penalty points also.
Alonso said after the race he fought Hamilton hard for Max and Ocon. So, there is no love lost for Hamilton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Oh no, this seals his contract for next season. He took out all of Lewis' rivals in one move!Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
This is the type of thing I really hate about the budget restrictions. Damage done to cars that were clearly not the car can come back to hurt the team. In clear cut cases I think it would be nice if they had a provision that allows them to make major repairs without the penalties.Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
I really don't know if there would be a proper way to hand the penalties out to the cars at fault, since it's the luck of the draw in some respects as to the long term costs to the teams involved. It sucks when other drivers are taken out, but in many cases the car that caused things is taken out as well.
Though I will admit I hate to see when driver X causes a mess and takes out other cars, and in the end benefits from it in the race while drivers Y and Z retire or lose a lot of positions.
From my point of view this is a non runner from the start. Crashes have always been part of F1 from the outset- if a team like RBR hasn't budgeted enough for the damages they have sustained then their accountants need to do a better job next year. The same with every other team up and down the grid. Budget caps have been in the making for 15 years. If in that time they haven't thought to budget for crashes then really that's on them. Crashes are part of F1 making other teams pay for your repairs, no matter what the reasoning, is opening Pandora's box and, regardless of the solution, I can imagine litigation and court cases following.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
If you compete in F1 and can't handle some damage to your car every now and then, you're in the wrong sport.
I didn't state anything about having the team causing the damage to pay for it, simply provisions within the budget to allow repairs not allowed by current rules. FWIW, the only time I could even think of placing the burden on the car causing the damage would be if it was intentional and deliberate beyond any doubt.... then maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
With the restrictions on the power plants, I don't see why a team would be forced to run older units or face penalties if the damage is not caused by them. Depending on luck, someone could have major components taken out of service early in the life cycle, and with only three of many of these major engine components to be used through the season, they get double or triple shafted. I think at a bare minimum they should be allowed to replace that component without penalty. It's just rubbing salt in the wound for an incident that they didn't create.
I'm fine with budget caps and it making the teams closer in terms of performance. But with the noose tightening more over the next few years, it would suck to see a team lose out in the WCC for reasons beyond their control. This would once again hurt the small teams more than the big teams, as the small teams really need every point in the WCC to get through the coming years.
Now that is an interesting thought. The budget was reduced from $175m to $145 for this 2021 season. I think particularly because the teams are essentially reusing the 2020 car to a large extent. I have a feeling that teams that have suffered crashes this season would push back to raise the budget back to $175m for next season. The experiment of the budget cap of this 2021 season has shown that $145 might not be enough in situations where a team suffers a higher number of crashes than the average of a typical season.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
It is hard to imagine that a dispensation spend for exceptional cases would be introduced, as it would muddy the water of accounting. Besides, every team, would be quick to find a reason why they should be allowed to spend more. Then there is the problem of consistency of applying it fairly across the big teams and the smaller teams. A spending band seem more reasonable; $145m to $175m. Even that reintroduces the problems of having teams spending at the top end of the band and having better performance from it. And smaller teams that are only able to spend up the minimum budget.
Well, Binotos suggestion sounds a reasonable one to me..
The temptation for reckless driving/foul play... for F1 to become 'destruction derby' is exorbitantly high with how things currently stand.
Sure the Stewards final decision on who was at fault and therefore liable for the bill would likely be debated to death on here, probably even more than usual, but even if they got 75% of them right it would still be a lot fairer than the triple/quadruple whammy of having someone take out both of a teams cars, losing them many valuable points then having a sizeable chunk of their seasons capped budget go towards repairing the damage which consequently has a knock on effect of reduced development and therefore season long performance, as well as grid penalties for going over engine/gearbox etc quotas... for the guilty driver to only suffer a single 5 position grid penalty for the next race and a couple of penalty points.
Yeah, maybe there is a better and fairer way of doing it.. but it's not a bad one in my book.
Sebastian Vettel disqualified from Hungarian Grand Prix as Lewis Hamilton promoted to second
By George Flood
1st August 2021
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/for...n-b948701.html
Vettel finishing position and points reinstated
August 2, 2021 · by thejudge13
https://thejudge13.com/2021/08/02/ve...ts-reinstated/
Aston Martin will appeal Sebastian Vettel's Hungarian Grand Prix disqualification having been stripped of second place to a fuel infringement... meaning Lewis Hamilton's title lead could be reduced
• Aston Martin will appeal Sebastian Vettel's disqualification from the Hungary GP
• The German finished second but saw that taken away due to a fuel infringement
• Lewis Hamilton saw his championship lead increase as a result of the decision
• If it was overturned Max Verstappen would close the gap on the British driver
By Philip Duncan, Pa F1 Correspondent
Published: 09:01, 6 August 2021 | Updated: 09:17, 6 August 2021
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ng-second.html
Vettel disqualification hearing to take place on Monday
2021 Hungarian Grand Prix
Posted on
6th August 2021, 15:436th August 2021, 15:47 | Written by Keith Collantine
https://www.racefans.net/2021/08/06/...ace-on-monday/
I don't know that I would trust the FIA to decide who pays myself, as we have enough controversial calls as it stands now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
My primary first concern would just be not adding insult to injury by applying a penalty to a team that has already lost points and increased costs for an accident they didn't create. Though costs would vary somewhat team to team, I'm sure they could come up with some general average number for major components such as engines, battery stores, etc. And it would be easy to ensure that no team gains advantage by introducing new major components, just by assigning them a life cycle max or something.
Fair points.The FIA probably also have more than enough on their plates without having to attend numerous hearings and appeals after every race weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
In one hand I'd like to see a real deterent for reckless/careless driving with the guilty drivers being punished rather than the unfortunate victims merely being punished a little less. However, I do concede that could also have an adverse effect on the spectacle and be detrimental to the racing with drivers potentially playing it too safe, avoiding going for the gaps in case it didn't work out in their favour. Your idea is probably the better one over all, it equalises just about enough while still maintaining an acceptable balance on the effect.
Aston Martin petition for review date to reverse Vettel disqualification announced
06 August 15:45
The FIA have confirmed Aston Martin's video conference to try and overturn Sebastian Vettel's disqualification will take place on August 9.
Aston Martin's video conference with the FIA will take place on August 9 as they seek to reverse the stewards' decision to disqualify Sebastian Vettel from the Hungarian Grand Prix.
The FIA were not able to take a one litre fuel sample after the race so Vettel lost his second place behind race winner Esteban Ocon. Aston Martin have lodged a requested a right to review, the same process Red Bull undertook prior to Hungary for the controversial lap one incident between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen.
https://racingnews365.com/aston-mart...tion-announced
Lewis Hamilton faces title setback as Aston Martin appeal Sebastian Vettel penalty
Aston Martin will appeal Sebastian Vettel's Hungarian Grand Prix disqualification, which would cut Lewis Hamilton's title lead.
By Claire Cottingham
PUBLISHED: 01:02, Sat, Aug 7, 2021 | UPDATED: 01:19, Sat, Aug 7, 2021
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...FIA-penalty-F1
ESTEBAN OCON
Ocon: I'm a bit sad for Vettel
06 August 08:55
The Alpine driver admits motorsport can be cruel and does not like to see his rivals getting disqualified as Aston Martin lodged an appeal against the stewards' decision to disqualify Sebastian Vettel from the Hungarian Grand Prix.
Author Nigel Chiu
https://racingnews365.com/ocon-im-a-bit-sad-for-vettel
Ralf Schumacher Has No Sympathy for Vettel, Aston Martin in F1 Fuel Controversy
Sebastian Vettel forced to give up podium finish at Formula 1 Hungarian Grand Prix over fuel amount in car.
BY GLOBAL MOTORSPORTS MEDIA
Aug 6, 2021
Former Formula 1 driver Ralf Schumacher says that Aston Martin is wasting its time by appealing Sebastian Vettel's disqualification from the Hungarian Grand Prix for having a too small amount of fuel left in the tank at the end of the race.
FIA scrutineers were only able to extract a third of the required 1 liter of fuel from Vettel's Aston Martin-branded car after he finished a sensational second last Sunday. Given Aston Martin's right to appeal, Vettel's car was impounded with Aston Martin insisting that more than a litre of fuel remains safely on board.
https://www.autoweek.com/racing/form...1-controversy/
Motor racing-F1 stewards to assess Aston Martin's case on Aug. 9
Sebastian Vettel
6 August 2021, 7:00 pm
Formula One stewards will assess on Monday Aston Martin's request for a review of Sebastian Vettel's disqualification from second place at last Sunday's Hungarian Grand Prix.
The governing FIA said it had scheduled a video hearing for Aug. 9 with the Aston Martin team manager and a maximum two other witnesses.
If the stewards accept grounds for review, another hearing will be held.
Aston Martin has also appealed the disqualification, but that may not be necessary depending on the outcome of any review.
The team said on Thursday they had discovered "significant new evidence" which had been previously unavailable to them.
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/mot...821ZKysRmliL58
The only hope for AM is that one of the scavenger pumps failed , leaving enough fuel in the tank and piping to get the required amount for the sample , I am guessing .
Otherwise , what would be the point of any appeal ?
That's the way I see it as well. But if they are really crafty maybe they set it up so when the car stops on track and "runs out" of fuel there is still at least one liter in the tanks left for the sample.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I still don't think the appeal will fly either way, but this is Formula One...
BREAKING NEWS: ASTON MARTIN’S PETITION FOR REVIEW DISMISSED
Sad times for Sebastian Vettel.
By Niya Sinckler
Aston Martin’s appeal was reviewed by the FIA regarding Sebastian Vettel’s disqualification at the Hungarian Grand Prix.
After discussing the case via video teleconference, F1 stewards dismissed Aston Martin’s petition for a review under Article 14 of the FIA International Sporting Code for reasons of admissibility.
Article 14 states, “14.1.1 in Competitions forming part of an FIA Championship, cup, trophy, challenge or series, or of an international series, a significant and relevant new element is discovered which was unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned, the stewards who have given a ruling or, failing this, those designated by the FIA, may decide to re-examine their decision following a petition for review.”
Read MORE here;
https://www.formulanerds.com/news/br.../?nowprocket=1
SEBASTIAN VETTEL
Aston Martin fail in review bid to overturn Vettel's Hungarian GP disqualification
Author Nigel Chiu
The stewards have rejected Aston Martin's right of review so Sebastian Vettel will remain disqualified from the 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix.
https://racingnews365.com/aston-mart...squalification
Aston Martin: FIA dismisses team's Hungarian GP right to review
Michael Delaney09/08/2021 at 19:0309/08/2021 at 20:25
Aston Martin has failed to convince the FIA stewards to accept its right to review Sebastian Vettel's exclusion from the Hungarian Grand Prix in which the German driver finished P2.
Vettel finished the race second on the road, but during a post-race fuel sample check, the scrutineers were unable to extract the 1-litre minimum amount of fuel from the tank of the German driver's Aston Martin AMR21, as mandated by the regulations, with only 0.3-litres being pumped out.
The Silverstone-based outfit argued for a right to review based on "significant new evidence relevant to the sanction which was unavailable to it at the time of the FIA stewards' decision".
However, the "new" evidence in question - data that demonstrated that there had been a fuel pump failure that prevented the extraction of the minimum 1-litre amount of fuel - was dismissed by the stewards in Monday's video conference hearing as the data was available after the race, although it could not be processed on site in a timely manner.
Aston Martin was initially convinced that 1.4-litres of fuel remained in the tank of Vettel's car at the end of the race.
But the team eventually concluded upon further analysis that "an analysis of various data carried out after August 1, 2021 showed that there was actually less than 1 litre remaining at the end of the race due to an initially unnoticed malfunction in the fuel system."
The stewards crucially assumed "the fact that there was not enough fuel in the tank", while "the question of what caused the situation was left out of consideration".
For the stewards, only the shortfall in fuel was therefore considered.
"Therefore, for the assessment of whether or not the 1-litre requirement was broken, it does not make a difference why there was less than 1 litre," read the FIA's report.
"There may be a couple of explanation why at the end of a race the remaining amount is insufficient. In any case, it remains the sole responsibility of the Competitor to ensure that the car is in conformity with the regulations at all times."
Aston Martin still retains a right to appeal the penalty handed by the Hungarian Grand Prix stewards to the team. But the team has yet to decide whether to exercise that right or abandon the case altogether, perhaps a wiser course of action in light of Monday's decision by the FIA stewards.
Read MORE here;
https://f1i.com/news/414661-aston-ma...to-review.html
Aston Martin
Aston Martin to consider "full appeal" after FIA denies Vettel disqualification review
Sam Hall
Monday 9 August 2021 20:36
Aston Martin team principal Otmar Szafnauer has stated the team will now "consider our position" with regard to a "full appeal" after the FIA denied a review of Sebastian Vettel's disqualification.
Vettel was disqualified from the Hungarian Grand Prix after finishing second to Esteban Ocon when only 0.3-litres of fuel could be extracted from his car in post-race scrutineering.
https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/68...cation-review/
Red Bull chief Helmut Marko lays into Lewis Hamilton with Sebastian Vettel penalty claim
Red Bull chief Helmut Marko thinks the penalties are inconsistent in F1 following incidents with Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel.
By Luke Gardener
PUBLISHED: 18:32, Mon, Aug 9, 2021 | UPDATED: 18:32, Mon, Aug 9, 2021
F1 must look at the penalties they give out, according to Red Bull chief Helmut Marko. It is after Sebastian Vettel was disqualified from the Hungarian Grand Prix and Lewis Hamilton received a 10-second time penalty for a crash with Max Verstappen at Silverstone prior.
Vettel had a storming drive for Aston Martin to come home in second but did not have enough fuel to be tested by the FIA.
The German was therefore disqualified from the race.
Hamilton collided with Verstappen at the British Grand Prix which left the Red Bull star out of the race but the world champion only received a 10-second time penalty.
The Briton went on to win the race after he managed to catch and pass Ferrari driver Charles Leclerc.
“Vettel was disqualified because there was not enough fuel left in the tank. So we have to talk about the relation of the penalties,” Marko told Speedweek on penalties in F1.
“It is clear why Vettel almost ran out of petrol, because a normal race had been calculated and then he simply used more in the fight with Ocon – no driver saves petrol in this situation.
“Where is the relation there compared to Hamilton’s offence?
Read MORE here;
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...-claim-F1-news
If they are considering an appeal now , they really must think there is more fuel in there .Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
An appeal would be expensive , but , maybe the points are worth it .
I think the question is, why should the driver be punished for the error of the team? Vettel did not make any mistakes here, he just drove the car he was given. As far as the fuel test goes, the other Mercedes powered cars are not having a similar problem and they have been doing this for years now. Hence, there is no excuse really. It is just a shame that Vettel has suffered the most for a race that he drove brilliantly in a car that has infringed FIA protocols.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
How about they stop giving Ferrari that $100M special payment even though they were caught cheating and the FIA tried to cover it up and use that money as pot for repairs for all teams, given that they can prove the actual cost of repairs instead of the fake sums they give, even though their all own their own factories and the costs are parts are already redundancies given that they are only remanufacturing their own designed parts etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
From the sound of things they are just grasping at straws. The technical regs don't seem to leave much grey area in the matter, so I personally think the cause is already lost. Unless AM can prove that they have a system that conforms to regs and has somehow been damaged of malfunctioned, they are going to be stuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I think they are just bluffing on the appeal myself, but really in the grand scheme of things they already have plenty of cash and lawyers, so the possible grab at a few more points might be worth a roll of the dice.
I believe Aston Martin has admitted that the required fuel was missing because the fuel pump had started leaking the fuel out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I believe they are appealing it on the terms of whether the punishment fits the crime. I mean Bottas and Stroll take out 25% of the cars and get only a 5 space grid penalty, while Vettel has a fuel pump failure at the end of the race the leaks the fuel out and gets disqualified - where is the justice?
They might have a real case if it was a leaky pump , but I can't imagine them getting anywhere if it's just comparatively unjust .Quote:
Originally Posted by F1nKS
They'll need pictures of the puddle , or the opportunity to drain it and replace it to pump the required fuel , if it is , indeed , there .
Arguing about someone else's penalty will get them nowhere when the rule they breached and the penalty for said indiscretion is clear .
It would merely piss off the same people they are trying to convince of their own innocence .
While it may be possible, I think most likely the fuel leaked out while battling on the track. :laugh:
It brings to my mind the question of how efficient the aeros are on the AM , since they were in the slipstream of the Alpine for most of the race , and might have expected a little less usage as a result .Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
The Merc motor doesn't seem overly thirsty in the Merc car , so that isn't likely the issue .
They obviously knew there was an issue , though , because I'm sure they would have loved to see that car sitting behind that #2 sign at the end .
And , it might have just been a mathematical goof .
Mind you , that goof seems to only have been found in the cool-down lap , so it kind of backs up the leaky story they seem to be going with .
So , if the data they may have for the fuel pump correlates with the idea they were good through the race , but lost the expected fuel load during the cool down lap , they might have a chance .
I hope they find that puddle because it was nice to see the old codger on the podium ( oops , that's ageism , isn't it ?) .
ASTON MARTIN
Aston Martin withdraw appeal against Vettel's disqualification in Hungary
12th August 2021, 14:06
Aston Martin's disqualification from the Hungarian Grand Prix will stand, as the team have withdrawn their appeal against Sebastian Vettel being thrown out of the results.
Author Thomas Maher
Aston Martin have decided against continuing with their appeal against Sebastian Vettel's disqualification from the Hungarian Grand Prix.
Vettel, who finished second to Esteban Ocon at the Hungaroring, was disqualified from the results after the stewards were unable to get a one-litre sample of fuel out of his car at the end of the race.
Aston Martin lodged a petition for a right to review the penalty with the stewards, as well as lodging an intention to appeal the outcome. Earlier this week, the stewards declined the petition from Aston Martin due to a lack of new evidence.
The team's AMR21 suffered a fuel pump issue during the race that resulted in the car having less than the required one-litre, but the cause of the issue was of no concern to the stewards. With the car not containing the required fuel, as dictated by the technical regulations, the petition was rejected.
Following on from that decision, the team have now decided to withdraw their appeal against the disqualification.
"Having considered our position and having noted the FIA stewards’ verdict that there was clear new evidence of a fuel system failure, we have nonetheless withdrawn our appeal on the basis that we believe doing so outweighs the benefits of it being heard," said a short statement from the team.
https://racingnews365.com/aston-mart...ion-in-hungary
Aston Martin admit defeat in Sebastian Vettel appeal - and it could be key in title race
Vettel may have lost his second-placed finish and the 18 championship points that came with it, but Max Verstappen could be the biggest loser from the situation
By Daniel Moxon
• 15:06, 13 Aug 2021
• Updated16:24, 13 Aug 2021
Bosses at Aston Martin F1 have finally admitted defeat in their quest to reverse Sebastian Vettel's disqualification at the Hungarian Grand Prix.
The German finished second behind surprise winner Esteban Ocon in Budapest, but was later stripped of his podium place after the FIA could not take the required one-litre fuel sample from his car after the race.
His team contested the decision and provided evidence as to why there was less fuel than anticipated left in the car.
However, the FIA stood by its decision after reviewing the appeal and deemed the new evidence "not relevant" – much to the displeasure of team principal Otmar Szafnauer.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formu...opped-24754899