Printable View
My post was an aswer to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
2) He won 9 titles, and before him the driver who won more title was Makinen who won less then a half and has been a bit lucky for some of them.
Just correcting that Mäkinen and Kankkunen both had 4 titles.
Yes you were right, my mistake I didn't wrote Kankkunen in that sentence. Thanks for having pointed it out. As you said the argument remain the same but of course kankkunen should have been there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mise
To answer your question. Yes, he was good.
I say very good and a nice guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
Not so nice that he would allow other Citroen drivers to compete with the same engine output or without contractual restrictions.Quote:
Originally Posted by spyros
like Ogier?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
It's nice to make up stories out of nowhere to try to make people look at the past in a different way, isn't it? I wonder if you say this to justify the only time your golden boy Ogier was defeated...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
Since I can not create any interest in discussion, I get to answer myself.
After winning 78 WRC rally over a relatively short period of time, what is it that possibly is very illogical?
That he, in the same period, is the one with the most 2 places too?
This may be what distinguishes Loeb (and possibly Ogier) from all his competitors. He only tried to win whenever he cold. Would the contest for first place with a high probability bring great opportunities for a run-off and thus 0 points, he did not, like his competitors would, tried until it said bang.
This should, for example, Meek learn from. Try to win with a car that most likely belongs at 3-4-5 place is completely unbelievable, and stubid. Your back feeling will tell you when the limit is reached. Or put it another way, it should.
If not, he will not, can not, take up the battle with Ogier. Not him either.
Ogier really impressed me last season. He could even endure in some rally end up behind one in the same team.
No made-up story. Sordo and Ogier would have won Spain on separate occasions had orders / engine management not been applied. I can't wait for Petter's biography when he can tell his own story about the Citroen mechanics 'interventions' on his hire car when ever Loeb was out of the running. I am not saying Loeb wasn't a briliant driver but he wasn't the Mr Nice Guy that his PR has led many to believeQuote:
Originally Posted by focus206
location: London... LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
cool story bro...
you know one gigigalli is enough for this forum...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
till now the facts are that Ogier wanted Nr 1 status at Ford,and he had superior mechanical parts at his car,thats why Tanak prefered ToyotaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
also its a fact that Ogier at Citroen didnt want Nr 2 status against a 7 times world champion.Team manager gave him the right to push Loeb, and both lost,the one his job and the other the championship.All these happened while Loeb sweeping all gravel rallies.
Thats the only facts.
your stories about engine management are laughable.
That's quite some news, wow, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
You have no way of knowing. I could say that Ogier won his 4 championships at VW not because he's an omniscient God, as you believe, but because he cheated and VW gave him a car with 100hp more and irregular tyres. But why would I create a story like that? I don't feel the need to bring down drivers I don't particularly like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
Let's be honest, Mintex. I respect every driver and every fan of every driver, but it's hard to consider your posts serious, when 90% of them are hyping up Ogier in such a manner that one would think you're trolling big time. You seem so obsessed to try to prove that Ogier is better than Loeb that I'm sure not even Ogier cares as much as you do.
these are news only for you.All the others knew them for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
In general I can agree, until 2016. Then we saw Ogier we never saw before, It's like the same fire doesn't seem to burn in him anymore. Yes, he wants to beat everyone still but not on the every single stage not on the every single rally, especially last year when everything was new to him. The world just keeps going and without those intermediate "titles", he is still the best one at the end. Loeb on the other hand never gave up on those ambitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach 2
BTW it's "Meeke", not "Meek".
If You don't like my posts You can easily ignore them. I rarely post lately anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
cant ignore a post with irony when you quote me.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Irony? Why do You think so, I only thanked for the information.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Wow.. Is this thread still alive? I am not saying that Loeb is not a great driver, What i say is that he had an easy ride to his 9 titles in the WRC. And between 2008-2012 he did not have any serious competition and Citroen was far above every other manufacturer. And i am pretty certain that if Loeb had competed fulltime in the WRC between 1993-2001 instead of 2003-12 he would still be WRC champ, But definitely not a 9-time champ.
Instead of just saying "he didn't have any serious competition", look at my post (#116) and write why you think he had no competition between 2008 and 2012. Oh and for sure in 2008, 2011 and 2012 Citroen cars were definitely not far above Fords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joestlaachmkr
i remember duval saying the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/de...ade?id=5601953
hard to tell what's true and what's not, but usually if there are a few smoke plumes there's a fire somewhere.Quote:
"En Allemagne je suis en tête. On rentre à l'assistance, je repars et ma voiture ne va plus. Ils avaient mis volontairement ma voiture un peu malade pour que Sébastien gagne. Mais autant dire : laisse le passer, car Sébastien était devant moi au Championnat"
its not hard to tell if its true,if you examine properly every stage,and Duval vs every driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
time stages dont show a slow car after any service.Except that Duval was only at ss3 in front of Loeb for 3,2 sec.
Impossible to have less power car and at second pass of stages to go faster by 10 seconds,and Gronholm to be 10 sec slower from Duval,while he was also 10 sec faster from his first pass.
Loeb just was faster for 15 sec from first pass,while everybody was from 9-10 sec faster.
Stage is ss3 and ss6.After ss 3 must be a service if i understand well watching the itenary.
https://www.ewrc-results.com/results...nd-2005/?s=560
i kinda wonder if they got the years mixed up. what duval said seems to be more like what happened in 2007.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
fastest on day 1, losing lots of time on each stage on day 2, and then fastest on day 3 again when loeb was nearly a minute ahead.
no its not like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
at day 1 he is 1,3sec faster from Loeb
at day 2 at ss 7 was out of road 2 times losing 16,5 sec to Loeb
at ss 8 loosing 10,3 to stage winner Loeb at 19 km stage
at ss 9 loosing 6,2 to Loeb at 16,51 km stage
at ss 10 losing 10,1 sec his comment was ''it wasnt bad'' at 30,55 km stage
at ss 11 faster from Loeb for 0,3 at 16,37 km stage
at ss 12 losing 2,7 to Loeb at 19km stage
at ss 13 loosing 5,9 to Loeb at 16,5 km stage
at ss 14 losing 0,3 to Loeb ay 30 km stage
at last stage his comments were "I've been pushing a lot tonight, I'm happy, it's amazing after 8 months."
i dont see any lost of power at his car.
at long 30km stage he was equal
at one stage was faster
at all the rest he was loosing from less than 0,1 sec per km and at some stages he was loosing more like 0,55 sec /km
he was loosing more at first pass of stages.He was loosing a lot less time at second pass.
he wasnt constant,that was his problem,except the 2 offs at one stage where he lost 16 sec.
i think the fact that people who do not credit Loeb for his achievements resort to conspiracy theories and bullshit talk about internal sabotage instead of facts shows how great Loeb was...
the fact that a has been brings so much pain and agony to little pig kids shows his greatness... nobody bothers with the titles of the others because compared to Loeb they are garbage dogs.
So as i said. Fastest on day 1, pushing on day 2 but still losing massive time, even to hirvonen, and fastest again on day 3 when loeb was far ahead and it was in the interest of citroen that he would catch gronholm.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Or maybe the wine-country specials that were contested on day 1 and 3 were better suited to the smaller and nimbler Xsara, while the bulky C4 was better suited to the panzerplatte stages on day 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
The thing is that on day 2, he not only lost time to loeb in the c4, but also to gronholm and hirvonen in the ford, and to atkinson in the subaru.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lousada
My short answer to the original question "How good was Sebastien Loeb?" would be "very" (and I would also correct the original question by saying that he still is good rather than was good!).
I personally think that direct comparisons are very difficult, if not impossible. Drivers who were very successful in one era would not have fared as well in others as the design of the cars - and the optimum driving style for getting the best out of them - evolved: you don't have to look too hard to find plenty of examples of drivers that fall into that category.
I do think that Loeb would be held in higher esteem if there had been more competition (i.e. more manufacturers) in his prime seasons, but for me he was an incredible driver, in the right team in the perfect era for his driving style. Of course a change in team would have allowed him to demonstrate versatility (which I think is the mark of a true great), but the options weren't really there at the time. I also agree with previous comments that it's a real shame we never got see a full season of Loeb/Citroen versus Ogier/VW.
Perhaps slightly off topic, but I feel that the achievements of Ogier with VW are viewed in a similar fashion to Loeb as he (Ogier) looked to be in a different league at times. Not to undermine his previous results, but I think Ogier taking the Championship last year was his finest career moment to date: proof that he could take a Championship when he wasn't in a car that was clearly better!
Yeah I agree, thats a good summary.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbtstt
To expand on your second point, part of the reason Kankkunen is rated so highly by many is because he was successful across such a wide range of car formats - 2wd Group 4, 2wd Group B, 4wd Group B, Group A, and WRC. Only driver to win championships with 3 different manufacturers, his first WRC rally wins were in 1985 and his last were in 1999 - 14 years later! Coming out of retirement to finish 8th at Rally Finland 2010 at the age of 51 was pretty respectable too.
I guess you're right that Loeb could have changed manufacturer if he really wanted to prove a point, but even if he had done that the WRC car format stayed pretty similar right through his career (changes in engine size/power and active vs passive diffs but they've all been 4wd cars of similar architecture) so he never had the chance to show the same adaptability. And vice versa we will never know what results Kankkunen might have had if he had spent his whole career in the same team like Loeb did, often with the biggest budget and probably best car that was so well suited to him.
So I'll just say I think they're both among the best ever and leave it at that. :)
What I really like about Loeb, is that he really didn't try to beat any records and as he said in multiple interviews asked about his speed "I don't know, I'm not special, maybe just couple tenths quicker" :)
didnt tyou read the analysis stage by stage?Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
how his car was slow at day 2 when at one stage he had 2 offs,in another stage he was faster from all,and in the bigger one was with same time as Loeb?
No he hadnt a slow car.
I feel you guys. It must be really difficult to find reasons to downrate Loeb dominion. But you still try your best to do that.
Right? It's funny how one gets called a Loeb fanboy for saying 'You know what? I reckon he was actually pretty goddamn good.'Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
I'm a Ford fan and I remember him very distinctly to be way better than I liked :D
its not about fanboism,its about reality and facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watson
i don't know what you are trying to say. your stage analysis proves exactly what i'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
on day 1 he was 17 seconds faster than everyone besides loeb, on day 3 he was 37 seconds faster than everyone besides loeb.
and on day 2? 5th fastest, losing 30 seconds to everyone besides loeb. even without his offs, he still lost 14 seconds to gronholm.
his times on day 2 were clearly slower than those on day 1 and 3. coincidentally he was slower when he was a threat to loeb, and faster when loeb was uncatchable and he was a threat to loebs challenger gronholm.
i could very well be coincidence, but as mintexmemory said, similar story's are being told about sordo, ogier and solberg.
For everybody who says Loeb didn't have strong competition consider this: Nadal, Murray and Djokovic are all great, great Tennis players but they are unfortunate enough to be active during the same period that a certain Federer is around.
i am not trying to say something,i give you facts that you cant explain about the detuned engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
You didnt gine me any explanations about fastest times and equal times with Loeb at stages at day 2.
no your analysis isnt right.How a slow car with detuned ecu has same stage time at 30 km stage at 2nd day?
how a detuned car has faster stage time at 2nd day?
plenty of drivers are slower/faster from their team mates at EVERY rally at different days,for years. It happens at EVERY rally.
That doesnt mean that they have a detuned engine.
He has always seemed like a genuine rally enthusiast too - I remember times when he had retired from rallies (I know not many!) and would be seen out spectating for the rest of the rally, while some other drivers would just pack up and go home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcco